justinjrussell #fundie

justinjrussell #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

the atheist who charges God with immorality must have some absolute, universal, and invariant system of morality by which he can judge God.
Christians get their system of justice and morality from God's revelation, but from where does the atheist's sense of morality come?
From his own subjective opinion? Then he has no right to criticize anyone else's system.
From society? Then in Hitler's society ethnic cleansing is "good."
From the innate survival mechanisms of nature? Then whatever humans (part of nature) do must be "good" because their actions are products of their natures and thus "good."
From some moral agent beyond this material universe who has the authority to impose morality on this material universe and its inhabitants?

32 comments

old comment by Zadic

Correction, you get yours from a book that is thousands of years old and was written by Humans. Your own religious leaders do not deny that it was written by Humans, they simply think that they were inspired by god. However, assuming that is true, since the multiple writers obviously contradict themselves, they've either misunderstood god greatly or they added in their own beliefs. In that case, what else did they misunderstand or add in on their own? Perhaps bits a pieces of your "godly" morality such as their talk about how it's okay to own slaves?
Of course I seriously doubt they had any godly inspiration, (I would say that they did not, but it makes me feel like I'd be falling into the same trap as these people) so in reality you get your morality from Humans who lived in a different time and a different world where different things were important to them. Congratulations, I'm sure that's far better than adding in thousands of years of free thinking and advancement to base your morality off of.

old comment by JD

Actually we get ours from judging what we would want to happen to us in similar circumstances. This is why the "basic core values" so many religions claim would go "missing" without their influence are the same. Its a basic part of comming up with a religion.
Stuff like "hurting others" (we all know the various ways to do that, though they've different names/titles sometimes especially with translations) being a bad thing, killing being a bad thing, stealing being a bad thing... These are not just from your religion, justinj. These things are common behavioral sense. Even the most vicious of wild dogs may apply this to their pack without a thought. It all boils down to "Hurting people puts me at risk of the same" and "helping/aiding others makes it more likely they'll do the same for me". Its observable even in bats: those that don't share their catch with those that couldnt' manage or were injured, etc, won't have it done for them when they're going hungry. By the way, even if you WANT to be pan-seared for eternity for something that may not even have harmed or inconvenienced anyone, its either a fetish or there's medication to help you. Meanwhile your "god" asks people to kill eachother for some rather ridiculous things, calls all sorts of perfectly natural (hey, didn't he DESIGN you that way?) processes "unclean", "abberations", "sin", forgets things, gets angry every other day, needs rest, isn't omnipotent despite his claims, can be FOOLED it seems, and certainly hasn't done anything to stop this so-called "satan" of yours. This is the measuring stick for your morality? A schoolyard bully (at best) who's never grown out of his little "ME!" phase? [by the way, all the things in this paragraph are taken straight from your holy book, unlike the strawmen you love to paint our names on before burning] Seeing as we get our morals and ethics from nature, the rare and elusive common sense, and the whole basic "do unto others" bit found in all societies, one could say we're actually several steps above ye-olde arbitrary angry (how do you get angry when you already know its coming and supposedly have infinite love? Anger is an imperfection, and a negative reaction to something that surprises you. Frustration goes hand in hand with that, usually described as anger over one's lack of power versus a situation...) skyfairy your old storybooks claim wants everyone worshipping and slaughtering...

old comment by Anon-e-moose

"the atheist who charges God with immorality must have some absolute, universal, and invariant system of morality by which he can judge God.
Christians get their system of justice and morality from God's revelation, but from where does the atheist's sense of morality come?
From his own subjective opinion? Then he has no right to criticize anyone else's system."

Ahem. (*cracks knuckles*). Step back, good peeps of FSTDT. As resident Argument Annihilator, I'll handle this...:

If ('If.' [/Spartan Laconic Wit]) I should be brought before your 'God' to be 'judged', all I'll have to do is say to him, 'After all you own crimes against humanity - including Hosea 13:16, Deuteronomy 2:34 & 3:6 - you've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army%E2%80%93McCarthy_hearings#Joseph_Welch_confronts_McCarthy

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God: 2,038,344

Satan: 10 (and only on God's authorisation)

Anon-e-moose: 0

@szenah

"God doesn't even follow his own rules."

See above. Q.E. and D.

'I haven't killed anyone. Nor do I want to, ever. The 6th Commandment. God judge thyself. Matthew 7:1, and all that jazz.'

Then I'd point at him, and say with my more than infinitely superior morals intact: 'J'accuse!'. Thus your so-called 'righteous' God would have no choice but to admit his own moral inferiority, then get off that lofty throne of his, offer it to me - and transfer his omniotent powers to me - and worship the more than infinitely Superior Anon-e-moose.

As his own 'Word' says: 'Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone'. Condemned youself out of your own 'Word', God?! [/smartarse]

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"From society? Then in Hitler's society ethnic cleansing is "good."
From the innate survival mechanisms of nature? Then whatever humans (part of nature) do must be "good" because their actions are products of their natures and thus "good."
From some moral agent beyond this material universe who has the authority to impose morality on this material universe and its inhabitants?"

Nope. Just from Bill & Ted:

'Be Excellent to each other!'

-"Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure"

Moral: 'I wouldn't like to be killed/harmed/raped, nor have my property stolen/damaged, so why should I do the same to others?'. 'Treat people as you would want them to treat you'. 'Commit acts of gratuitous kindness'. Simple Humanist philosophy, which religion dares to think it has the right to unjustifiably complicate with all it's 'guilt' & 'Original Sin' bullshit. To further annihilate your argument, the Wiccans, and their Rede:

'An it harm none, do what thou wilt'

See? Even simpler philosophy. Damn, but those Wiccans got it right first time! SpukiKitty, I'm looking at you. b^_^d

justinjrussell #fundie christiandiscussionforums.org

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