Charles Darwin could never have conceived of the Joker character as he is depicted and played in The Dark Knight. Darwinism flowered in the midst of a world impacted imperfectly by a tide of Christian influence. No one was talking about being an “intellectually fulfilled atheist.” No one was claiming that morals are social constructs. The Joker as portrayed by Ledger is the consistent Darwinist. To use his own words, “I’m just ahead of the curve.” There is nothing menacing about the Joker if evolution is true. If you go to see the film, ask yourself this question: “If the assumptions of the four horsemen of atheism are true, what did the Joker do that was wrong?” To be ahead of the curve simply means that he figured out and is willing to live out what he is by nature. Darwin drew the blueprints for the Joker thinking he was making Pygmalion.
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Evolution.
Is.
Not.
A.
Set.
Of.
Moral.
Guidelines.
It is merely an explanation for what happens and why, but takes no stance on whether what happens is "good" or "bad". The laws of physics say that a small projectile traveling at a high velocity has the momentum necessary to kill you, but that does not mean that physics condones shooting people.
"Charles Darwin could never have conceived of the Joker character"
What the goddamn fuck does the Joker have to do with evolution? Why not ask Penguin or Catwoman or Poison Ivy? At least they are based on themes found in nature.
Besides, I prefer the Joker played by Caesar Romero. That was a classic.
"If you go to see the film, ask yourself this question: “If the assumptions of the four horsemen of atheism are true, what did the Joker do that was wrong?”"
I've yet to see the movie but if they went back to the roots of the character than being a psychotic sociopath who murders indiscriminately could probably be seen as "wrong" by most rational people.
What that has to do with atheism I'm not sure. I suspect it's one of those lame "atheists have no morals/have relative morals, whereas being a good Christian I have morals that are god-given" bullshit argument.
"To be ahead of the curve simply means that he figured out and is willing to live out what he is by nature. Darwin drew the blueprints for the Joker thinking he was making Pygmalion."
I believe you're quite insane and severely lacking in your ability to critique pop culture if you actually believe any of this.
"Charles Darwin could never have conceived of the Joker character as he is depicted and played in The Dark Knight."
WTF is this!?
"No one was claiming that morals are social constructs. The Joker as portrayed by Ledger is the consistent Darwinist"
What does the idea that morals are solely based upon social imperatives have to with anything?
"There is nothing menacing about the Joker if evolution is true."
LOLWUT? Again: evolution does not condone sociopathy. Sometimes a lunatic is just a lunatic.
"To be ahead of the curve simply means that he figured out and is willing to live out what he is by nature."
Not really when he thinks that "the curve" which is he is ahead of is essentially a massive backstep for society.
"Darwin drew the blueprints for the Joker thinking he was making Pygmalion."
Why to contradict your first sentence. Also: WTF!? continued.
If you go to see the film, ask yourself this question: “If the assumptions of the four horsemen of atheism are true, what did the Joker do that was wrong?”
Umm... he fucking killed a bunch of people and blew some stuff up?
Last I checked, Dawkins and the rest weren't advocating murdering people willy-nilly.
I am almost beginning to like fundies who are all afraid of pop culture in all its forms better than the ones who try to be "relevant".
BTW, this dude is no Poe. Search "Gary DeMar" at the site Talk2Action: http://www.talk2action.com . This is actually one of the saner things he's written.
OMG. No. Just no.
Btw, you mess with Batman and Heath Ledger's Joker, I'm gonna mess you up, bitch. You don't throw mud at genius like that.
In that interpretation the Joker would be the Ubermensch, the new man who lived by his own set of morals and intends to burn away all those of the past and lead everyone into his new way. That's not Darwinian. That's barely tolerably human. Yes, I hate Freddie N. And Ayn Rand can come back from the dead and kiss my ass for both cribbing from him, and for being a hateful nutter as well.
"Charles Darwin could never have conceived of the Joker character as he is depicted and played in The Dark Knight."
'Cuz he died before movies and comic books were invented?
"No one was talking about being an “intellectually fulfilled atheist.” No one was claiming that morals are social constructs."
I'm pretty sure they were, if not using that exact language. Philosophy isn't my forte, but Gabriel LaVedier kind of makes the same point.
"The Joker as portrayed by Ledger is the consistent Darwinist."
Then why wasn't he having lots and lots of babies to spread his genetic material?
"There is nothing menacing about the Joker if evolution is true."
He kills people. If evolution is true, that means he's a threat to the survival of everyone around him - quite menacing.
"Where does the penguin fit into this?"
Before the flood, the world was flat and Antarctica was on the edge, and God made penguins flightless so they wouldn't fly off into outer space. And Henry Higgins couldn't accept this.
"Charles Darwin could never have conceived of the Joker character as he is depicted and played in The Dark Knight..."
Well, Albert Einstein could never have conceived of flan as it is described and cooked in Julia Childs's book.
I mean, I guess. Makes as much sense as the fundtard's sentence.
Hey, Gary, are you talking about the movie directed by Chris Nolan? The screenplay was by Chris and Johnathan Nolan.
Pygmalion was a play written by GB Shaw.
I don't think Charles Darwin had anything to do with either.
How can you mix the joker with evolution????
Evolution does not adress moral codes, that is a job for society. You should ask yourself, dispite all of our petty moral codes, considering all the desire people have to actually make the others disapear... Where did the joker cross the line?
He is Chaos, he is not atheism, atheism is just a word, as well as god is just a word. Thr character of the joker and batman, are not defined by their words, they are defined by their actions.
There is a special point in the movie as to how little he covets money, and how easy all that he does is.
Crossing the line is not a matter of belief in a supreme whatever or not, is a matter of actions.
What do YOU do that makes you good?
Put a side all your beliefs, forget all your petty moral writtens...
What do YOU do that makes you good?
What good do YOU do for others?
I find that you have just taken this very well constructed character and used it to put forward some speech of yours that has nothing to do with it. Nothing at all.
No, no, dear--that was Bob Kane and Bill Finger that created the Joker. Darwin isn't responsible for EVERYTHING you don't like.
Also, the 19th century was one of great social changes in a puritanical society, including the fact that atheism and agnosticism were becoming more widespread and science was quickly becoming more accepted.
What are you talking about? The Joker ends up in prison unable to have children. How is that even slightly like evolution? Moron.
If on the other hand loads of fit birds wanted to shag the Joker because he was a violent sociopath, then you might have a point.
Sigh ... I do wish fundies at least understood the basic rules of evolution. Then this nutter would realize that the Joker isn't the perfect Darwinist. The Joker's place in evolution is environmental pressure. The people around the Joker must adapt or die, which is one of the basics of evolution.
A bit off topic: My personal theory regarding the Joker as portrayed by Heath Ledger is that the Joker is an ultra-deep cover operative who was caught, probably tortured (which explains the mouth scars), whose interrogator probably said something along the lines of "Well, aren't you the joker?" when said caught operative got smart-mouthed, and who mentally snapped which allowed him to escape (although not to become sane again).
At least my theory is logical, unlike Mr. Fundie's. :)
Besides, I prefer the Joker played by Caesar Romero.
Yuck? I can't get the image of the painted-over mustache out of my nightmares. Gak. Hork. Biff.
@ Dan Onymous: "If on the other hand loads of fit birds wanted to shag the Joker because he was a violent sociopath, then you might have a point."
Well there is Harley Queen XD
but what he said is still a complete assload of shit
Obviously Mr DeMar never read The Killing Joke, which basically is the Joker's backstory, & was used in part, in Tim Burton's 1989 adaptation of Batman, as well as in the Dark Knight...
The Joker is insane, & it's this he's referring to, when he mentions he's "ahead of the curve", that is if current society goes on in this manner, then everyone will go mad & be like him...
To paraphrase the Joker in The Killing Joke,
"Don't get even, get Mad...".
Er, wrong. I'm pretty damned sure the Joker was created by Jerry Robinson, Bill Finger, and Bob Kane.
Also, he was not preaching social Darwinism. He was an anarchist, and believed that everything would fall into disorder.
Oh boy, where to begin...
First of all, you seem to have grossly misinterpreted the notion of "survival of the fittest." The fittest is not necessarily the strongest or the most ruthless. Human beings have evolved to work in groups. In ancient times, rabid individualists tended to die young without progeny, while those who lived in bands and tribes had a better chance of surviving and producing offspring. Thus, evolutionarily speaking, "the fittest" doesn't mean the biggest jerk. In a very real sense, the most cooperative may be the fittest.
(Cont.) SPOILER ALERT
Now, addressing your Joker analogy. If you had actually applied some thought to the movie, you would have noted that the Joker exploited civilizations divisions for his own gain. He relied on the police's inability to work together as a team, and the services of individuals who were as ostracized from society as one could be (i.e. the mentally ill).
This dynamic came to a head with the bombs placed on the cruise ship and the convicts' boat. He was counting on the people's response to make a grand statement about how irrevocably fragmented the society of Gotham was, and how inept the establishment was at protecting them. The effect would leave everyone in Gotham convinced that there was no one they could trust, not the government, not their neighbors, no one! They would all be effectively isolated, just like the Joker himself. That is what he meant by being "ahead of the curve."
Now comes the nagging question: which subset of society most resembles the Joker? Who is working overtime to portray the system as being hopelessly corrupt and inept? Who points its sanctimonious fingers at individuals from various groups and tries to nullify their patriotism, their sanity or even their very humanity? Who glorifies unrealistic notions of "self-reliance" while decrying group activity and concern across social barriers as "communist," "ungodly" or, most absurdly of all, "unamerican?"
I'll give you one guess DeMar
"Charles Darwin could never have conceived of the Joker character as he is depicted and played in The Dark Knight."
And there's me thinking that Batman was created by Bob Kane...?
Gary DerpMa here must think that Charles Darwin had written the anime series "Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion" then, as the scenario's main villain Emperor Charles zi Britannia bases his rule on the Social Darwinistic principle of progress through inequality and conflict.
Who'da thunk it?! [/hyper-sarcasm]
'The American Vision'? Mr. DerpMa here - if he knows what's good for him - had better not read a certain retconning of Superman, as imagined by Monty Python's John Cleese no less: "Superman: True Brit. "
Whilst "Judge Dredd" is set in the future US east coast Mega-City One, it - and it's (anti)hero Judge Joe Dredd - is 100% British in origin, via "2000 AD"
@Jesus Klingon
"I prefer the Joker played by Caesar Romero. That was a classic."
And never mind Michele Pfeiffer, Eartha Kitt was Catwoman! Rawr! :9 =^_^=
@Dr.Shrinker
image
Couldn't have put it better myself.
Fundie methodology: Find something evil and reprehensible, then draw parallels, no matter how irrational and absurd, with something or someone you don't like.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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