chris777 #fundie

chris777 #fundie christianforums.com

But also When I researched the origins of science itself I discoverd Its deep roots in pagan philosophy, alchemy, and so called "mystery" religions.
And it makes me ask, when did we ever redeem something that had pagan origins in it, by incorporating those ideas within ourselves? Science fiction I believe does that, fiction by its very nature is a lie, fantasy, and the love of it, is at its conclusion the love of a lie.

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old comment by Papabear

"But also When I researched the origins of science itself I discoverd Its deep roots in pagan philosophy, alchemy, and so called "mystery" religions."
You did no such reasearch. Pagan "philosophy," alchemy and mystery religions may have all been attempts to explain things that unenlightened societies found mysterious, but they were (are) not the roots of science anymore than Xianity is. "And it makes me ask, when did we ever redeem something that had pagan origins in it, by incorporating those ideas within ourselves?" You do it all the time, moron. For example, Easter is named after a pagan god. How 'bout Xmas trees, wreaths, Yule logs, holly, mistletoe, the Genesis creation stories, the Flood story, the story of Job. Need I go on? "Science fiction I believe does that, fiction by its very nature is a lie," No, fiction is only a lie if it is propounded as the truth, like say, the Bible. Much of the Bible is fiction, but since it is purveyed as the truth, that fiction has become a lie. "fantasy, and the love of it, is at its conclusion the love of a lie." No, as long as one realizes it's a fantasy, love of a fantasy is love of a fantasy. Xianity is love of a lie.

old comment by David D.G.

"Science fiction I believe does that, fiction by its very nature is a lie, fantasy, and the love of it, is at its conclusion the love of a lie."
My mom is a bit of a fundie, and this statement reminded me of her just a bit -- not that her opinion is quite so extreme, just that she does not like to read fiction (especially the really weird stuff I like to read, namely science fiction) because it is, in her words, "so unrealistic." I can't think of a single piece of fiction (well, anything actually marketed as fiction) that she has read for herself in 40 years -- with one exception: the Left Behind series. My mom, who is not much of a reader and who regards virtually all fiction as "too unrealistic" for her to deal with, has devoured something like 11 books in this series. Maybe there's a chance she'll learn to like science fiction yet -- or at least broaden her tastes to other kinds of fantasy. ~David D.G.

old comment by tracer

When I researched the origins of science itself I discoverd Its deep roots in pagan philosophy, alchemy, and so called "mystery" religions.

Roger Bacon? Christian. Copernicus? Christian. Johannes Kepler? Christian. Galileo? Christian. Sir Isaac Newton? Christian. Sir Francis Bacon? Christian. Laplace? ... Well, I guess the sun can't shine on the same dog's ass every day. But then again, he was just as indifferent toward "mystery religions" as he was toward Christianity. Furthermore, he didn't hit the scene 'til a century-and-a-half after the Scientific Revolution was already in full swing. So ... where are these early pagan-mystery-religion scientists again?

old comment by Hollio

"And it makes me ask, when did we ever redeem something that had pagan origins in it, by incorporating those ideas within ourselves?"
I don't know, let's see: plumbing (Roman), certain forms of architecture (especially columns), certain forms of breathing (Tai Chi, which some would call "eastern paganism"), and THE PAPER THAT YOUR BIBLE IS PRINTED ON (Chinese) are all pretty pagan, maybe we should stop using these as well. Why must fundamentalist Christians think that everything even remotely related to paganism is pure evil? "Science fiction I believe does that, fiction by its very nature is a lie, fantasy, and the love of it, is at its conclusion the love of a lie." How did you manage to get from talking about the scientific method to talking about fiction? This is possibly one the most insane logical leaps that I have seen in years. This guy needs to be nominated for some kind of annual quote award. This is just... man, beyond ignorant.

old comment by Angua

Pagan philosophy? You mean the Greeks? Okay, then, you are no longer allowed to do Euclidian geometry, anything that involves levers because Archimedes figured out the main principles in how levers work, anything that moves water uphill using Archimedes' Screw. Also, since Aristotle is credited with doing the first study of formal logic, you are no longer allowed to use logic. Aristotle also created the first camera, so you can't use camera either. And you can't ever go to any legitimate doctor either, because they are required to take the Hippocratic Oath saying they won't harm they're patients. And the Hippocratic Oath is named after Hippocrates being an ancient Greek who made large advances in the medical sciences. Democritus speculated on the existence of atoms, so your not allowed to believe in atoms either. And remember the Pythagorean Theorem? (I assume you at least took basic geometry in school.)Well, you can't use that either because it was discovered by Pythagoras. Eratosthenes was the first person to prove that the world was round, so I guess you'll have to become a flat-earther. He invented the systems of longitude and latitude, so you can't use any maps with those either. He also figured out what the tilt of the Earth's axis was (to a surprisingly accurate degree, given his time) so I guess you can't believe in seasons either. Hypatia also invented the hydrometer which is used to measure the relative density of liquids, so I guess you'll have to believe that all liquids have the exact same density as water.

-continued-

old comment by Angua

Of course, this is just what I've come up with in a couple of minutes (and to be fair, I ended up using Wikipedia -- mostly to refresh my memory, but I did find some new information there, so if there are any errors on that list, I'd be grateful is you pointed them out). There's a lot more out there. Heck, there may have been plenty of discoveries that we'll never know were made because some religious fanatics decided that it would be a great idea to burn the Library of Alexandria.

Of course, these people also got a lot of things wrong. But we've been able to keep what they got right and through out what they were wrong about.

Also, a lot Christian philosophy relies on Greek philosophy, so I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss these pagan philosophers if I was you.
(For instance, Thomas Aquinus and Saint Augustine were greatly influenced by the works of Aristotle and Plato.)

old comment by Angua

I also ought to mention that many of the scientific discoveries made by the Greeks and Romans were basically forgotten in medieval Europe. When Christian Europe was in the Dark Ages, the great scientific advances were being made in the Islamic world. The Renaissance would not have come about had it not been for the Muslims preserving the works of the Greeks and Romans. If you consider the Muslims pagan too, then you can stop using public hospitals and public libraries. You probably shouldn't get surgery, since the Muslims were basically the forerunners of modern surgery. They discredited the system of four humors long before Christian Europe realized that the idea was faulty. They made advances in other fields of science as well. I think astronomy in particular is worth mention (you ever noticed how many stars have names derived from Arabic -- if you want a shortcut, just how many begin with "Al-". )You can look this stuff up yourself because I'm tired of looking stuff up for you. When you did your research, you were correct to realize that science as we know it today had a lot of non-Christian influences -- But Christians made use of these influences and made plenty of contributions to science themselves.

So why are you rejecting sci-fi, but not all of science? (Or maybe you do, which I find scary.)Sci-fi isn't necessarily very scientific. And it isn't a lie because it doesn't claim to be telling you the truth. People who love science fiction aren't in love with a lie. They like the ideas, the characters, and so on, but they don't believe it to be real. Although science fiction is fiction, that doesn't mean it can't be used to get real ideas across, the same as in any form of fiction. A lot of science fiction and fantasy has very Christian ideas and themes. Would you like to call those lies as well? You obviously know nothing about science fiction of fantasy.

“And it makes me ask, when did we ever redeem something that had pagan origins in it, by incorporating those ideas within ourselves?”
Wow.
So, when the Romans conquered a new area, they didn’t just impose their gods. They talked to the locals about what they worshiped. For example, in England, they worshiped Bath when the Romans arrived.
The Romans asked about her, her offices, and figured she was basically like their goddess Minerva.
So they built a temple to both Goddesses, the Bath-Minerva temple. After a generation or two, they built a new one to Minerva-Bath. A couple more generations, they built the Minerva temple.

These are the same bureaucrats who stretched the Holy Roman Empire around the world. But rather than incorporate additional gods, they turned the gods they found into Saints of Christainity. Ste. Brighid was originally a local goddess, Brighid.

When they couldn’t stamp out the celebration of Saturnalia, they called it Christmas and it became a Christain holiday.

The Pagan horned god was turned into Satan.

You guys do this ALL THE FUCKING TIME.

Oh, and the symbol of your faith? The cross? Is the Roman torture device that they nailed your god to. How could you have missed that? It’s a perfect example of your question!

chris777 #fundie christianforums.com

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