CJ #fundie

CJ #fundie friendlyatheist.com

CJ said,

April 16, 2008 at 9:24 am

We believe in talking birds (African Grey Parrot). Why is a talking snake such a stretch? We have evidence of an animal that speaks today, yet no one can prove that snakes have never spoken. It all seems so silly. If atheist want to label faith as fantasy, perhaps they should pick better examples.

49 comments

old comment by Blayze Kohime

A few birds have become fairly competent at communication but only when specifically and tirelessly instructed by human tutors. Though these birds were intelligent, they were not capable of passing on the information to their young.

Reptiles can't for a number of reasons, the most of which is that their vocals aren't shaped right to make human speech. They can't even make loud sounds or syllables, much less words.

And then you use the logic that peeves me so much. I can't prove that badgers can't talk. I can't prove that insect that just buzzed by wasn't a secret government listening device. I can't prove a lot of things. That's why the burden of proof is always on the one making the claim.

old comment by Horsefeathers

"We believe in talking birds (African Grey Parrot)."

Birds don't talk; they mimic. While Alex, probably the most famous African Grey parrot, counts and can distinguish colors I wouldn't call it speech.

"Why is a talking snake such a stretch?"

Lack of vocal cords, incorrect musculature and other anatomical hurdles make it exceedingly unlikely that snakes will be speaking to anyone anytime soon without the help of hallucinogens.

"We have evidence of an animal that speaks today, yet no one can prove that snakes have never spoken."

Well, my dog "speaks" when I tell her to. She has a very limited vocabulary consisting of "woof" though so it's a rather dull conversation. Other than that, I know of know animals that "speak."

We know snakes have never spoken because, aside from the previously mentioned anatomical impossibility of it, I doubt their brain would be capable of it. Not only that, snakes have no ears and are virtually deaf so speech would be rather useless, no?

"It all seems so silly."

You said it.

"If atheist want to label faith as fantasy, perhaps they should pick better examples."

No, I think belief in talking snakes is a pretty good example. Of course there's always Balaam's Ass which also spoke...

old comment by Brian X

Parrots do seem to have just enough symbolic thinking capability to associate specific lexemes (not necessarily words -- perhaps whole phrases or just sounds) with specific objects. That's not quite language, though it's getting there. It probably has something to do with the same selective pressures that allowed them to become such good mimics to begin with -- if you have the ability to mimic the ambient noise, it helps to be able to know exactly what to copy when for maximum effect, whether avoiding attention or attracting prey with false cues.

Snakes, on the other hand, have developed strictly for stealth and efficiency and probably devote the bulk of their brain power to controlling their musculature. (If you had to flex damn near every muscle in your body to move, your brain would be otherwise occupied as well. Burning calories on higher brain functions might be crippling in that circumstance.) Hell, most snakes are deaf to begin with, so they couldn't learn to talk effectively even if they had a reason to.

old comment by Antichrist

African Greys are intelligent, but they have to be taught words, and they are unable of complex conversations. I think Alex only got up to sentences like "want apple", "2 blue ball" and I believe he'd say "love you" when he knew he was about to be put back in his cage and didn't want to go. That was working day in and day out with him in a university setting. Also Parrots naturally make a range of noises using their diaphragm in a way similar to the way that we use our voice box. My dogs don't talk to me. Great apes don't talk (although they can be taught sign). Snakes don't really make a lot of vocalizations at all. They hiss, and I think that's as far as it goes.

So your saying that I should accept a talking snake, even though they are not physically capable of talking, that they have no natural vocalizations, and that there was nobody there to teach it how to talk, let alone converse in a way to trick somebody.

Seriously dude, lay off the Disney movies, they're warping your brain.

Hah.

The only animal that truely speaks is the Homo Sapiens, the human. But it's interesting to study and acknowledge other animal communication. Still, considering that deities are also the product of the only animals capable of imagining such, humans, no other animal would start preaching or lying about deities. Humans are the same animals who can imagine talking snakes.

But there also are other problems with the mythology. It exposes a deceptive god, for instance, who purposely tempts humans to then punish them. After apparently creating them with that innate vulnerability. And maybe a god with his own vulnerabilities, because some things cause him to feel threatened and to react irrationaly and aggressively. Just more evidence that it's a human invention, too. We know much more about our origins than the authors of those traditions did.

CJ #fundie friendlyatheist.com

49 comments

Confused?