Barber declared that it has become obvious that gay marriage and religious liberty cannot coexist and so "in much the same fashion as did the civil rights activists of old - Martin Luther King and others - Christians are going to have a decision to make; it may be a time for civil disobedience."
"Christians have been persecuted for 2000 years by radical leftists," he said, adding that just as King spent time in jail, anti-gay Christians today might have to suffer the same fate, knowing that they will be rewarded by God for upholding his law and refusing to "pretend that somehow a man can marry a man, a woman can marry a woman."
"You guys can put on two tuxedos or two wedding dresses and play house and get pretend married 'til your heart's content," Barber said, "but marriage is what God says it is. We can no more change the laws of gravity than can we change the laws of marriage."
43 comments
One indeed wonders where these ancient leftists came from, before anything on the political left today was, yknow, invented.
"marriage is what God says it is"
So marriage is:
- one husband and as many wives and concubines his financial position allows him to have.
- the brother of a childless dead husband having to impregnate the widow; very aware of that legally, he'll be just sperm donor. His late brother will be the FATHER.
For starters.
Because marriage is like gravitation, a product of nature. Which is why we see ravens, dolphins, lions, cats, dogs happily celebrating weddings and being monogamous. Oh, wait...
Impressive set of mental gymnastics here. Somehow, the people who oppose marriage equality are just like those who fought for civil rights? It's exactly this sort of intolerant moron that would've fought hardest against MLK and the civil rights movement.
I'm not even going to start on the "2000 years of leftist persecution" history fail. Being told you can't persecute others isn't persecution.
Like gay people don't have real families... Right wing Christians rag on about "family values" while excluding some of their own family members. What sort of "values" are those? Just continue being a dick and decent people will exclude you from humanity, how about that?
"We can no more change the laws of gravity than can we change the laws of marriage."
Only we have changed marriage laws considerably throughout the years, so... Yeah, that's an epic fail.
"Christians have been persecuted for 2000 years by radical leftists,"
Except that what you today would call "the left" has it's roots in the 16th century at the earliest with the widest of possible definitions.
"but marriage is what God says it is. We can no more change the laws of gravity than can we change the laws of marriage."
Well if your up for a test I have an idea. We'll marry a gay couple in a state or country with same-sex marriage and see whether society accepts it, meanwhile you can walk of a skyscraper and hope god suspends gravity.
Leaving aside the "leftists" in the Roman Empire*, forbidding others from activities that have no material effect on you is the antithesis of civil rights.
* OK, I can't. Early Christians won hearts and minds by tending the sick and feeding the poor with no reward but a new convert. The Roman patronage system helped others only when a patron needed something in return. Who were the leftists, exactly?
Jesus was a radical leftist, stupid.
Gay marriage and religious liberty coexist just fine in most of Europe. What are you planning to do in this civil disobedience? Not getting married to a person of the same gender? Boring! Many of us pro-gay-marriage people are married to a person of the opposite gender; we won't get shocked if you do the same.
Anti-gay Christians might have to suffer the same fate? Well, we know for a fact that gay Christians ARE suffering that fate right now in Russia.
You see yourself as upholding God's law? So, are you just as outspoken about people who wear cotton-blends, work on the Sabbath and touch menstruating women? We don't need to pretend, we have seen for ourselves that a man can marry a man and a woman can marry a woman. The laws of marriage have been changed numerous times already, silly. It is no longer possible to marry several people, like they could in the Bible, for example. Btw, marriage is a legal contract, it is what the laws say it is.
marriage is what God says it is
So, it's got nothing at all to do with the State? I assume that all the various attempts to block State recognition of marriage equality was just because you were bored then...
@anevilmeme
"Can someone point out who the "radical leftists" were during the 1300's for me I must have missed that day of history class."
Watt Tyler, peasants' revolt. Mind you he never petitioned for gay marriage so maybe not.
@Broton of Loch Ness
"Watt Tyler, peasants' revolt." Anti-tax rebellion? More right-wing libertarian in a Taxpayers Alliance kind of way.
Mind you it was more to do with the way of telling whether an adolescent female was a girl (tax exempt) or a woman (liable for poll tax) by a "physical examination", so perhaps more of a left-right-neutral human reaction of "if you send officials with a pretext to molest my daughter I'll fuck you up".
"Christians have been persecuted for 2000 years by radical leftists,"
Epic.No Legendary. No this is beyond that. This is historical history fail. This line alone is cause to say the post and any future posts Matt Barber makes is fail
Since gay marriage does you or your straight marriage absolutely no harm in any way at all, you are protesting for the sake of your own ego and nothing else. Perhaps some time in jail will allow you to time to ponder and repent of your sins of arrogance, selfishness, hatred, and spite.
Considering marriage has NEVER been the exclusive domain of religion, yes, we can change the laws of marriage, especially since this is a SECULAR nation.
Barber declared that it has become obvious that gay marriage and religious liberty cannot coexist and so "in much the same fashion as did the civil rights activists of old - Martin Luther King and others - Christians are going to have a decision to make; it may be a time for civil disobedience.
This is an insult to MLK, considering that unlike you he was fighting for civil rights.
Christians have been persecuted for 2000 years by radical leftists,
Says someone who claims to follow Jesus who, by the way, said absolutely nothing about gays, but had a lot of other ideas that could be called "leftist".
Funny that.
but marriage is what God says it is.
Nope, marriage is what the state says it is. And since we are not a theocracy, we can change the definition of it.
You are just going to have to deal. So deal.
If the anti-gay terrorism wasn't so sickening, I might be looking forward to seeing civil disobedience against a law that doesn't in fact restrict anyone's rights.
Let's hope this "Civil Disobedience" will take the oft suggested form of "Not getting married with someone of your own gender".
The Romans who prosecuted early Christians did so on charges that they were atheists. Roman law allowed religious freedom as long as each person made token gestures to the Emperor and the Roman pantheon. Now, I agree that killing people over not doing that is wrong, but that doesn't mean that atheists of today (who would also have been fed to the lions) are in anyway connected to that. After Diocletian really got the persecution ball rolling, he did so thinking that the gods were angry at the Romans for allowing people to deny their existence and not worship them. Sounds a lot like modern evangelicals, no?
After Diocletian, Christianity began to seize political power. It would from then forth be the Christians who persecuted others.
Now, I agree that businesses and religious organizations should reserve the right to refuse service to those they do not wish to serve. That's freedom of association. But if you think living in a state where gay marriage is a reality and not being able to shoot the couples up is persecution, get over yourself.
Christians have been persecuted for 2000 years by radical leftists
Diocletian, the Tokugawa shogunate and the Dowager Empress of China were all radical leftists. You heard it here first. In fact, those who have been most numerous and most zealous in persecuting Christians have been...other Christians.
Wake me when Matt Barber gets assailed by police with dogs and nightsticks.
@Swimming With Crocoducks: First, you'll have to convince such ones that humanity's older than at least Judaism, if not full-bore Christianity.
No, really; there's quite a few claims that even Adam and Eve anticipated a Mashiakh with the exact same qualities as ascribed to Jesus the Nazarene. Like substitutionary atonement, a precept that didn't really take off until St. Anselm of Canterbury wrote Cur Deus Homo? in the tenth century A.D.
God commanded that whites and colordes be kept separate. King was in jail because he broke Jesus' command to avoid racial mixing.
Your support for King and his racial mixing shows you are anti christian. Why do you hate Jesus?
"Barber declared that it has become obvious that gay marriage and religious liberty cannot coexist"
Holland. To this day, a mainly Protestant country (King William of Orange, and all that jazz). With the lowest teenage pregnancy rates in Europe, if not the world, so they must be doing it right morally, at least eh, Mattie?
2001:
image
The people have spoken .
2013. Still the Protestant country it is. Nope, nothing's happened to that country, least of all so much as a peep out of the other 15% of the Dutch population between then & now .
Your call.
Oh, hey, look, that's the second guy I've come across who's tried to use gravity as an argument against gay marriage this year. Of course, it still fails, because marriage is a social institution, while gravity is one of the laws of physics.
Matt, Matt, Matt, are you desperate the stay in the game or what? This debate isn't about what your god thinks. It isn't about what you thinks. This debate is about legally recognizing same-sex marriages. When same-sex marriages become the law of the land, you will still have every right to sulk in your corner and grumble, "god doesn't agree. I'm so persecuted!"
See? Everyone wins in that case.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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