In an interview at a Cleveland Right to Life Event last year, self-proclaimed historian David Barton declared that “no nation” has ever survived more than 80 years past a collapse of “premarital purity and postmarital fidelity.”
“In regards to the moral standing of other democracies, including ancient Rome, how is the United States measuring up today?” an interviewer asked Barton in an edited clip posted on YouTube by the anti-choice group.
“Well, we got real trouble,” Barton responded.
“—Pre-marital purity and post-marital fidelity—no nation, any nation in 5,000 years has ever survived two generations past that, so it’s gone within 80 years,” he said. “So Rome’s the same way.”
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If this is true (big IF!), correlation does not imply causation, David. And (correct me if I'm wrong) I have a sneaky suspicion that sex was not discovered in the twentieth century. I'm sure our Founding Fathers could have explained that to you, somewhat earlier than 80 years ago.
Rome did just fine for a thousand years with its orgies and bacchanalias and pagan whatnots and sacrificial hoohahs.
Then in 380, Theidosius made Christianity the official state religion. He also ended the Vestal Virgins, the pagan priestesses who tended a sacred fire, an eternal flame revered by Romans as essential for the safety and security of the empire. The flame, which had burned for a millenia, was extinguished.
By 410, Rome was sacked. It was sacked again in 455. By 476, the western empire was spent.
I'm not sure how I feel about referring to a group as "anti-choice". When you do that, you're inviting yourself to be called "anti-life" or "pro-death".
Anyways, at least Barton isn't trying to claim the gays are responsible. Although, I'd still like a mechanism for how not maintaining an obsession with purity causes economic and military decay.
So, all nations that have had prostitution have collapsed in less than 80 years?
Rome did well for several generations, until it adopted Christianity, then it was gone within two generations.
What about earlier than 5000 years ago?
Teenager have always had premarital sex, for hundreds of thousands of years. Abortions have also always been around, since the first proto-humans noticed that certain plants caused the fetus to dislodge from the womb.
Pre-marital purity and post-marital fidelity
no nation, any nation in 5,000 years has ever survived two generations past that
Wait, wait, wait, stop.
What does that mean? Does it mean every single member of a nation married as a virgin? Or just most? If the latter, then by what percentage is the borderline?
No nation anywhere at any time has ever had a 100% virgin marriage rate. So where does Brother David draw the line?
Or does he mean that these days people aren't lying hypocrites and are unabashed and ghastly enough to admit and talk about what they do instead of playing 'oh so holy' pretend?
Barton? Unless the Goth, Visigoths, Carthaginians,and various other European tribes were as conservative as you, I don't think the "loss of marital purity" was responsible for the downfall of Rome.
I could almost forgive David Barton, because his idiocy prompted Chris Rodda's wonderful youtube videos and book Debunking David Barton's Jefferson Lies. For anyone who wonders why real historians consult original sources, Rodda provides the answer.
How does he think the Wild West went down? Prostitution was a huge factor durring the gold rush, the men needed a release. that was over two generations ago.Reallyf F in histoy thinks that the more moral a sociaty is the longer it lasts he's not just a revisionist, he's a delusional optimist. a sociaty needs it's light and dark sides to strive. it really does.
“premarital purity and postmarital fidelity.”
The Medieval monarchs and barons of Europe weren't always faithful to their partner, King Edward IV of England was alleged to have several mistresses for example. Yet these old kingdoms didn't collapse due to this. How odd.
Enforced "fidelity" is probably one of the worst problems in society. It has led to misogyny, possessiveness, homophobia, probably even racism.
Society as you kno it would collapse, but that's a good thing because I don't want to live in an anti-intellectual, credulous society that takes religious hokum for granted.
"
“In regards to the moral standing of other democracies, including ancient Rome, how is the United States measuring up today?”"
100 years after Constantine made christianity the official religion of Rome, the empire was in full collapse.
For those who aren't familiar with "self-proclaimed historian David Barton" that quotation is the nicest way they could refer to him next to "huge liar".
P.S. nazani14 is right.
"Chris Rodda's wonderful youtube videos and book Debunking David Barton's Jefferson Lies." is worth checking out for anyone that finds themselves bored on a rainy cold day.
She completely debunked much of his key lies over the years, alone with others but the conservatives just don't care about the realities of Christianity and American history. They want it mythologized too.
cripes, i completely missed the bit about "democracies like ancient Rome". then again, that's about barton's usual level of historical accuracy, so...
“
Pre-marital purity and post-marital fidelity
no nation, any nation in 5,000 years has ever survived two generations past that, so it’s gone within 80 years,”
Well then, why don't you fucking leave and go start your Republic of Jesusland somewhere?
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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