Chinese Academy of Social Science #fundie

Chinese Academy of Social Science #fundie abovetopsecret.com

Former editor of the Sunday Telegraph, Dominic Lawson, in a review in the Sunday Times of Niall Ferguson's new book, ‘Civilisation: The West and the Rest’, carries a quote from a member of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences in which he tries to account for the success of the West, to date.

He said: “One of the things we were asked to look into was what accounted for the success, in fact, the pre-eminence of the West all over the world.

“We studied everything we could from the historical, political, economic, and cultural perspective. At first, we thought it was because you had more powerful guns than we had.

“Then we thought it was because you had the best political system. Next we focused on your economic system.

“But in the past twenty years, we have realised that the heart of your culture is your religion: Christianity. That is why the West is so powerful.

“The Christian moral foundation of social and cultural life was what made possible the emergence of capitalism and then the successful transition to democratic politics. We don’t have any doubt about this.”

47 comments

old comment by capello moderno

I'd say that it is well possible that some dude at CASS said this. Likely a Christian Chinese dude.

CASS is just a university, and the mission statement is totally unrelated to what goes on in most of its research. The mission statement, in fact, is an instance of Chinese official speak: It has to be there because of tradition, but, for the most part, it need not influence what goes on. Except that you should tread carefully if writing some sort of critique of the Chinese Communist Party.

For example, how much in line with Marxism-Leninism is current Chinese trickle-down economy policy promulgated by economists as CASS? Not so much.

Anyway, I think the inference is relevant but probably mostly wrong, instead, I think the scholar should have looked to the enlightenment. By the way: why should we take seriously a book which such a bigoted title: "Civilization: the West and the rest"?

old comment by capello moderno

It seems that some of you guys think 'A member of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences' represents the official line of the party-state? He doesn't. He's just some, probably Christian, scholar, and when he phrases his stuff with "we realised.. blabla" he is either talking about his research group, or imagining that he is speaking 'on the behalf of China', which he isn't, and can't, since the Chinese hold loads of different opinions about stuff. Trust me, there is no consensus in China that Western 'pre-eminence' is due to Christianity.

Also, why exactly should we give any credit to "Christianity-is-the-foundation-of-morality + hegemonic power" because some Chinese armchair-anthropologist (or, actually more likely, armchair-economist) thinks so. Granted he does phrase it in a compellingly rhetorical way: first this, then that, but in the end.. blahblah.. who says he got wiser? It's still just an assertion, not an argument.

'prolly was the guns?

old comment by capello moderno

@UHM
You are wrong. You studied Maoism, that's cool, but outdated if you want to understand contemporary China. Look, I agree that the scholar would be censored from writing an article in People's Daily about the West being 1. superior and 2. being so because of Christianity. That is a no-go for a public newspaper.

But listen, there's tons of serious scholarship taking place in China, and the limits of what may be looked into are way more liberal for an elite institution such as CASS than for a public newspaper. You may study and argue - almost* -whatever you like as long as it stays within academia. It's a big thing to study the (former) success of the West - obviously it is, and there are a number of possible solutions to that question, no? There's no reason to doubt the authenticity of the statement based on the source in this case.

*can't argue that Tibet or Taiwan isn't China, that the Three Gorges Dam did more bad than good, that the the single-party state system in itself is corrupt, etc.

old comment by farpadokly

I don't think that's quite right. There is an ancient Christian kingdom in Africa called Ethiopia. It has always been very backward and poor compared to its Muslim neighbours.

"We studied everything we could from the historical, political, economic, and cultural perspective". Apparently this didn't include Jared Diamond's book Guns, Germs and Steel, which would've given you the correct answer. It's environment, climate, and sheer superior force of arms.

However, there is a connection between the Protestant reformation and the rise of Capitalism. But that doesn't mean the entirety of Western civilization can be reduced to Christianity. A more accurate definition of the foundation of Western civilization would be Christianity combined with Ancient Greece and Rome.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

"We studied everything we could from the historical, political, economic, and cultural perspective. At first, we thought it was because you had more powerful guns than we had"

2013: Largest standing army on the planet. J-20 fighter. Those pesky Type 99 Iron Chariots (Judges 1:19).

"Then we thought it was because you had the best political system. Next we focused on your economic system"

Guess who borrowed $1-5-2 billion a day just to keep the US's economy afloat - and from whom - before 2008, and Obama's 1st term...:

I remember a certain Mitt (the Tit) Romney being all for outsourcing to China; yet, that pesky Obama bloke wanted to keep jobs in the US; that $700 billion bailout of Detroit's automotive industry, for instance.

"But in the past twenty years, we have realised that the heart of your culture is your religion: Christianity. That is why the West is so powerful."

The Long March J2 vehicles used to launch the Shenzhou spacecraft (A few months from now, CNSA's Project Gemini-esque mission, with docking onto an [i]Agena[/i]-like component. Their ambitions for a manned mission to the Moon, and all that jazz).

So it can't be much of a 'Long March' for their engineers to build a needle scaled up so that a camel can walk through it's eye easily, therefore the PRC will not only own Heaven but replace God with Xi Jinping. [/sarcasm]

After all, they held the Olympics to pwn all others...:

Remember what your precious 'Anyone but Obama' candidate said about outsourcing to China eh, fundies...?!

China was an ancient & powerful civilisation (according to the literalist fundies) before, after, and during the 'Flood'. Certainly an advanced one. Egyptian. Roman. Ottoman. Third Reich. British. USSR. All great powers fall. No Exceptions.

What goes around, comes around, eh?

old comment by capello moderno

@ anon-e-moose

That's a wicked bible you found there. And fooling around the internet it looks kosher: the text is in both Chinese and English, it was authorised by the National Committee for the Chinese protestant church and the Chinese Olympics Committee. Thousands of copies were, allegedly, handed out for free to visitors during the olympics. Funky story, and funny how the bible looks much less imposing with a (comically stupid and) unrelated picture of some running athletes on the front and the bird's nest on the backcover, instead of, say, a black leather binding with a white cross. I wonder what the paper quality is like.. is this, perhaps, the bible I should go for?

old comment by Canadiest

Little thing called the industrial revolution, missed that somehow. This would be where we pulled ahead of the rest of the world, before that China wouldn't be much different in quality of life as most worked farms and lived entirely on what they could produce.

The churchs had what to do with the mass production of plows, sinks, textiles,lumber processing, trains and guns now? Nothing.

It irks me to that anyone thinks even a quarter of western culture ever were affiliated and regularly regemented to church attendance or cared in any way. The church road the train of prosperity, it didn't fucking build it.

The first English American Bible that was produced couldn't be given away. The Aitken Bible print run was mostly disposed of for lack of intrest.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@capello moderno

Well, can't be worse than the Bibles - along with disused pews etc - I found in a rubbish skip (US: dumpster) outside a Baptist church near where I live* several years ago that had closed due to lack of interest. Thus I 'liberated' said 'holy' tomes, so's I could recycle them.

Said Bibles now reside in a cupboard under the sink in my bathroom, next to the toilet. You do the maths. >:D

Hey, it's not my fault, if the grade of paper used in prining Bibles is sooooooo absorbent! They were printed in the US too.

*- Said 'church' is now a pub, which I frequent to have a beer or three, whilst playing darts, pool, and to watch Premier League football (via Sky HD) on their 50" HD TVs. Oh, teh irony...!

old comment by Amadaun

Y'know, the East actually concluded Christianity was a powerful tool over a century ago. Not 'the Lord is helping them' kind of powerful; fanaticism is strength powerful.

Imperial Shinto was the result of the Showa government attempting to replicate this cult affect. Buddhism might actually have worked, since for all its philosophical charms it does have a cult figure and plenty of emotional resonance, except that the Japanese government had alienated and hamstrung the Buddhist clergy decades earlier in the course of distancing themselves from the previous regime. Also, the Chinese were the primary enemy at the time, so an exclusively Japanese faith was preferable.

The imperial government did immense damage to the Japanese cultural heritage in the quest to standardize and centralize a syncretic, animistic, locale-based spirituality into a state cult, in imitation of Christianity. State Communism as ideology developed as a similar though somewhat less consciously imitative process.

Christianity has been in large part a tool of the secular power since Constantine sat at the first Ecumenical Council of Nicaea, in 325. The state and the church have used one another as power amplifiers time out of mind. It's a thing. The next step after the heights to which Europe carried this mechanism was the state cutting out the alternate power center of Church, and assuming its duties.

This is considered bad in modern democratic thought. The part where the ideology being manipulated is nationalistic or superstitious or involves being saved by a confederation of space aliens is actually relatively immaterial.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

“The Christian moral foundation of social and cultural life was what made possible the emergence of capitalism and then the successful transition to democratic politics. We don’t have any doubt about this.”

Ancient Greece, and Beer being so precious to such an early civilisation as Sumeria, it was used as currency.

Beer was what the workers who built the pyramids, temples etc were paid, along with shelter & food in ancient Egypt. Can you say 'Tea Bricks' too, o [I]Chinese[/I] Academy of Social Science...?!

Seems they've yet to introduce into their curriculum the British concept of Irony. We in the West have no doubt about that.

You could do well to have in your faculty Doug Piranha: Professor of Advanced Sarcasm too, then you wouldn't be making such a tit of yourself like this.

@#1915544

When the quoted bitch doesn't know about my Democracy-inventing ancient Greece and capitalistic Sumerians - especially the trade-based civilisation of ancient China - then I'm afraid that the commenters are smarter.

Incidentally: why didn't you know about said Greeks & Sumerians...?!