Dave MC:If you had been born in Yemen, would you be preaching Islamic presuppositionalism?
Dr. Lisle: No such thing. Nor is there atheistic presuppositionalism, or any other except Christianity. The presuppositional argument can only prove Christianity, because it works by the impossibility of the contrary, showing how non-Christian worldview would make knowledge impossible.
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A young Jason Lisle learn about the world's time zones:
"Imagine, Jason; when it's [X]o'clock here, it's [Y]o'clock at [well-known location] and [Z]o'clock at [another well-known location]!"
Young Jason (after a stunned silence): "Then it's really lucky for us that we live HERE, where it IS [X]o'clock AT [X]o'clock!!"
Back in the old neighborhood, when some adult wanted noisy kids to move along, we often replied, "YOU DON'T OWN THE STREET!"
I feel something similar is called for every time I hear this stupid argument. Do the Buddhists only think they're Buddhists? Or, are Buddhists drooling idiots and we never noticed? Likewise Hindus, etc, etc. Given a false premise, I could prove that we're all made of jellybeans because jellybeans are really the same as meat and bone. After all, they're all atoms, right? RIGHT? And if the world were flat, all the Chinese would fall off!
Jason, we can put a monkey in orbit, but we can't make you make sense!
Looks at ruins of buildings from BCE.
*Sarcasm Mode... ACTIVATE!*
Yes Jason, I'm sure that the Greeks where able to build complex structures completely by accident as they had no knowledge without the existence of the Christian worldview.
The pyramids? Probably naturally occurring.
Qin Dynasty Crossbows? Crossbows are made of wood, which grows on trees, ergo crossbows grow on trees.
Meanwhile in Yemen:
Yusuf Alisle: No such thing. Nor is there infidel presuppositionalism, or any other except Islam. The presuppositional argument can only prove Islam, because it works by the impossibility of the contrary, showing how the non-Muslim worldview would make knowledge impossible. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obtECFcViig
The presuppositional argument can only prove Christianity, because it works by the impossibility of the contrary, showing how non-Christian worldview would make knowledge impossible.
And yet if you presuppose the truth of Islam, it proves that any non-Islamic worldview would make knowledge impossible...
No wonder he thinks only Christians are logical... the stupid fucker bases it all on Circular Reasoning.
Islamic presuppositionalism shows how non-islamic worldview makes knowledge impossible, therby proving you are a know-nothing.
Atheist presuppositionalism was used to invent the computer you are using to post with, so you are basicly denying the existence of your post.
He is right in the way he is using the word. Presuppositionalism, the belief that Christianity is the only basis for rational thought, is unique to Christianity. It's a technical term, nothing to do with logical presupposition.
And yet none Christian cultures exist, have existed, and have added to the body of knowledge. Also note that because Islam is the "greatest hits" mashup of Judaism and Christianity that fundamentally anything that claims to desend from their frameworks will also work in islam
Tell that to Melkhizedekh, Abraham, Moses, Aaron, David, Eliah, Isaiah, the whole bunch. If you happen to meet them, of course.
@emau99: that's exactly what he's saying. Believe it or not, this belief is a real thing--that throughout history, only Real True Christians have ever invented or discovered anything of any importance, and that whenever non-Christian people seemed to have developed something important, necessary and useful, it was either because they (1) were actually super-secret stealth Christians, or (2) because they actually stole it from the Real True Christians who developed it in the first place. Non-Christians and pagans, they believe, are largely incapable of true imagination or creativity except when inspired by Christianity. This view is disturbingly prevalent in some corners.
See also: Jerry Boykin, who maintains that Muslims enslaved Christian enclaves and stole algebra from them.
Read: special pleading.
Spelling it out:
If you had been born in America, would you be preaching Christian presuppositionalism?
Dr. al-Lisle: No such thing. Nor is there atheistic presuppositionalism, or any other except Islam. The presuppositional argument can only prove Islam, because it works by the impossibility of the contrary, showing how non-Islamic worldview would make knowledge impossible.
"because it works by the impossibility of the contrary, showing how non-Christian worldview would make knowledge impossible."
Which is why the church tried to suppress intelligence and knowledge
@NonProphet : that's probably where they double down and start claiming that Christianity was the earliest religion. Or else they start slinging insults or just stick their fingers in their ears and scream "LALALALALA" until everyone normal gives up and goes away. Either way, really.
@the_ignored: or that, basically.
Somehow, I don't find it surprising that presuppositionalism was first codified by a Calvinist, Kornelis van Til. His main concern, interestingly, was to avoid ever compromising basic tenets even for the sake of apologetic arguments.
I presuppose that my prepositions are the only ones that makes sense! Checkmate everybody else!
Now I go back to arguing with a brick wall, where progress is at least theoretically possible.
Well, the good news is that I was able to coax out of Lisle confirmation of my suspicion that presuppositionalism depends in part on divine omniscience, although it doesn't look like he coheres to the level of predestination that Vincent Cheung does. This IS the sort of omniscience that involves knowledge of a...well, he doesn't seem to think it's fated/pre-determined, but I get the feeling he doesn't think the future is (markedly, at least) mutable. No sense of time having a leading edge beyond which nothing is carved in diamond, here (many things in beryl, maybe).
I also got him to clarify his position about non-Christians being able to have knowledge. It's the whole "the law of God is written in the hearts of men" precept, along with the rest of the conceit that God made his existence utterly obvious to everyone. It's not profession of Messian Judaism/Christianity that knowledge depends on, but "just" the existence of an extra-temporal divinity who effectively constantly whispers their understandings to us.
Long story short: It's ultimately just the ultimate in truth-by-revelation. Nothing can be assured apart from the confirmations of an outside observer, the observer in question being God. The difference from the usual revelatory spirituality is that the scriptures are augmented by constant divine whispers.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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