I don’t see how an atheist has any way of demonstrating that rape and murder are wrong.
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Very simply. Murder, rape, etc. hurt people; therefore, it's wrong.
Is that really so hard for you to understand? Of course, you probably follow that ancient text that says raping some moll's fine as long as you pay her daddy and marry her...
So, if it wasn't for the ten commandments or whatever, you'd be fine with rape and murder? That ancient story book is the only thing standing between you and rape and murder?!! Okay, if that's the case then you don't get to criticize my morals on the grounds that you need to seriously reconsider what motivates your moral actions.
Oh, for fuck's sake, we're seeing this stupid attempt at critical thinking yet AGAIN??????
Chesterton: Do us all a favor and just sit down somewhere quietly and stay in that position until you die.
Have you ever actually read anything about moral and ethical philosophy?
By the way, I don't see how a Christian has any way of demonstrating that slavery is wrong.
I don't see how a christian has any way of demonstrating that PI=3 is wrong.
On a more serious note, atheists, unlike christians, refrain from hurting people for reasons other than an invisible man will torture them forever. Atheists value the welfare of other people, not just themselves.
Rape and murder HURT OTHERS, dumbass! How much more obvious does it need to be? Anyway, if the only thing stopping you going on a rape and murder spree is the threat of an imaginary fire, then I fear for the people who you come into contact with.
By the same reasoning, neither does a Christian. All you say is that God says it's wrong, and that is not a base reason in itself; you're only deferring responsibility for the original decree to somebody else. Regardless of whether or not this "somebody" is labelled "divine", this is still not an understanding of morality.
According to the "good" book, rape & murder are what god loves most.
Normal people automatically know they are wrong.
My moral philosophy is that everyone has the right to do anything they want at any time until, and this is the important part, they interfere with someone else's right to do what they want. Laws are needed to cover the overlap areas.
Clearly, murdering someone would interfere with that persons right to do what they wanted, namely stay alive, so murder would be wrong and a law needs to be in place.
Rape also kind of interferes with that persons right to do what they wanted, namely to not have their body violently abused, so rape would be wrong and a law needs to be in place.
You, Sir Chesterton, on the other only think they are wrong becuase god says so and will punish you. I think my reasons are much better.
Really? Holy shit you're right. I'm convinced. Let's all be christians, where rape and murder are considered sins, but they're in reality ok because jehovah the benevolent sky fairy will forgive us for giving in to our passions and desires. I would like to call Poe, but I know better.
I don’t see how a Christian has any way of demonstrating that rape and murder are wrong.
I mean.. what are they going to say?
"If you rape or murder, my skydaddy will throw you into a horrible torture chamber where you will be raped and murdered for all eternity. And not just raped and murdered, it will be worse torture you can possibly imagine. It will be the worst torture there is. If, while down there, you realize how wrong it was to rape and murder, it won't matter. It's not a lesson, my skydaddy will have you raped and murdered endlessly, and your complaints will not be heard. What is wrong for you is right and just for my skydaddy!
But if you repent after committing your rape or murder and, most importantly, accept that my skydaddy is real, you won't have to go there. In fact that horrible place is not actually reserved for rapists and murderers, but for people who do not believe in my skydaddy.
Oh.. did you ask me to demonstrate why rape and murder are wrong? My skydaddy says they are wrong. You must accept it without asking any questions. Q.E.D."
Please, I'm not an atheist and even I know how they can easily justify this one.
Murder: If there is no God, then there is no life after death. By murdering someone, you are depriving them of a life, the one thing they can never get back.
Rape: Even atheists believe in the Golden Rule. You know that you don't want to get raped, so you also realize that you should not rape others.
You're right. It's completely normal.
Now please excuse me while I take your daughter into the next room, rape her, and then strangle her to death.
Rape and murder harm people, cause pain, end lives, and destroy people physically and emotionally. Ergo, they're both morally wrong.
I think it's a tad disturbing that you can't think of a way to demonstrate why these things are wrong other than to say "God says it's wrong".
Even if you strip all secular humanist morality from your question:
Rape - chance to propagate weaker genes if the woman isn't attracted enough to the man for consentual sex in the first place.
Murder - weakens the social unit. Strong chance of relatives seeking revenge.
And that's ONLY looking from a strictly Social Darwinistic viewpoint.
I don't see how a Christian has any way of demonstrating that rape and murder are wrong.
Your god condones it in the old testament, multiple times.
Idiot. If you force someone to do something for you against their wishes, and it's done to only benefit yourself, then what you are doing is wrong. Basically, if you take something that someone else deserves (such as their life) they you are being an almighty prick who deserves something really bad to happen to you.
Rape and murder are wrong. I am an apathetic agnostic (don't know, don't really care that much), but I can say it's wrong because I HAVE A BASIC SENSE OF DECENCY.
Whether I do or don't believe in God, I am still a human being, and few human beings are truly heartless people.
If murder was okay then what is to stop someone from murdering me? Nothing. Therefore let's all agree not to kill eachother. Not because it's always wrong to kill but just so that we do not have to live in constant fear of beeing murdered (same thing goes for rape).
Wrong/Right are just subjective labels. We can only agree on non-subjective practical reasons for morality.
The yardsticks of kindness, reason and compassion are not unknown to those who identify themselves as agnostics or even atheists. Morality is not an exclusive feature of a religious life nor do Christians have a superior position on moral or ethical behavior.
So please sit down and SHUT THE FUCK UP!
1) Rape would hurt me. Rape would hurt my neighbor. Rape is never fun. Rape is wrong.
2) Murder would kill me. Murder would kill my neighbor. Murder would make many people sad and angry. Murder is wrong.
Hope that helps.
"I don’t see how an atheist has any way of demonstrating that rape and murder are wrong."
Easy!
1- Such acts are against the LAW of any civilised society.
2- I don't go around raping & murdering people. The thought of doing so never crosses my mind. Why should I? And not only because I value my liberty. It's because I wouldn't like being raped nor murdered, thus I don't rape or murder anyone else. It's a simple philosophy called Humanism (and one that doesn't allow itself to be poisoned by the lies & hypocrisy of religion). You can do what you like (within legal constraints of course), as long as what you do doesn't harm people or damage their property (this includes theft). Religions don't have the monopoly on morals.
I think that's a reasonable demonstration. Your turn:
I don't see how a Fundamentalist Christian has any way of proving the existence of God (showing such to the world, in physical form), not without resorting to the Bible, nor philosophical word salad.
So tell me Chesteron, how many people did you rape and murder before you were "saved?" Oh come one, there must have been lots of people you raped and murdered back then. After all, you weren't officially a Christian, so there was nothing to stop you, right?
"I don’t see how an atheist has any way of demonstrating that rape and murder are wrong."
I don't see how a fundie has any way of demonstrating that rape is right:
http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm
Take your pick.
And as for murder:
image
I'm an Atheist, but I've yet to murder just one person to date; nor do I want to, ever. So I must be going wrong somewhere, re. my Atheistic morality eh, Chesty? [/mega-sarcasm]
Neither can a Christian. If God suddenly says "it´s ok to rape and murder", you go and do it(see Numbers). It has more to do, in my opinion, with the fact that it AFFECTS other people´s lives and that nobody wants to be raped or murdered, of course, and therefore, the Golden Rule. See?, it´s not that difficult.
would you like it to be raped & murdered? no? how surprising!
you see, all people have a base sense of not doing to others what you wouldn't like to have done to yourself. and atheists are smart enough to not label that conscience as a work of god.
“I don’t see how an atheist has any way of demonstrating that rape and murder are wrong.”
We don’t demonstrate it.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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