Moral reasons why evolution and survival of the fittest is wrong:
10. You get into a car accident and it's your fault. The car you hit is totalled. You don't have to pay damages because your car was more fit to survive.
9. You get into a car accident and it's your fault. Someone dies. You don't have to pay damages because you were more fit to survive.
8. There should be no doctors. If your immune system can't stomach a virus, you're not fit to survive. The poor and the starving shouldn't be helped because they're also not fit to survive.
7. We can have sex with anyone and everyone because we're helping the human race reproduce.
6. Stealing is acceptable.
5. Murdering and killing is acceptable.
4. There's no such thing as responsibilty. It's everyone to the last man.
3. Life has no meaning besides helping my race evolve.
2. We are animals.
1. There is no such thing as right and wrong. There is no such thing as morals.
40 comments
Moral reasons why religion is wrong:
10. You get into a car accident and it's your fault. The car you hit is totalled. You don't have to pay damages because God intended their car to be totalled.
9. You get into a car accident and it's your fault. Someone dies. You don't have to pay damages because God wanted them to die (they could have been the next Hitler!).
8. There should be no doctors. If God doesn't help you, you're not fit to survive. The poor and the starving shouldn't be helped because God wants it to be that way.
7. We shouldn't use contraception because we're helping our religion to reproduce.
6. Stealing is acceptable, unless it's from your neighbor.
5. Murdering and killing is acceptable, so long as they're infidels.
4. There's no such thing as responsibilty. Satan made me do it!
3. Life has no meaning as we're all the playthings of a demented puppet-master.
2. God gave us dominion over the animals, so we can fuck them over as much as we like.
1. There is no such thing as right and wrong - so long as you worship my God.
Huffers covered everything pretty well, but I'd just like to point out (for the umpteenth time) to Wander, the "Fundie-of-the-day," that facts are neither moral nor immoral, facts are simply things which are true. Similarly, survival of the fittest is amoral. Survival of the fittest applies to species, not individuals.
It seems that Fundies have a very peculiar moral code. They seem to think that, if they didn't have "God's" reward of heaven and threat of hell, they would be raping and murdering like the worst of the serial killers. They assume that atheists, being without their "God," must be utterly without morals. Of course, they never look around to see that most atheists manage to *not* become sex-crazed killers and that the prisons are brimming with the devout.
Why oh why can't they think rationally. 10 and 9 Even if you are the fittest and most likely to survive, a freak accident can kill anyone (try and run from a tidal wave as soon as it hits the beach).
I'm not seeing the moral wrongs of point 7,3 and 2.
1. Partly right - the concepts of "right and wrong" are largely societal in nature.
2. Correct!
3. Partly right - if you decide not to reproduce, that is. (Shallow end of the gene pool)
4. Sounds like Capitalist, "free" trade to me, but still wrong!
5. Wrong! Based on the false assumption that morality is exclusive to your brand of worship.
6. See 4 and 5.
7. Wrong! See 3.
8. Wrong! Doctors and science, in general, are proof positive that we are evolving, despite the lunatic fringe of anti-knowledge fundies.
9. Wrong! The argument is a non-sequitor
10. Wrong! See 9.
Your score is 2/10. You fail at life and are not fit to survive. Terminate with extreme prejudice, the sooner the better!
NotMe,
"I'm not seeing the moral wrongs of point 7,3 and 2."
It didn't say "with anyone and everyone who is a consenting adult"...although I think Wander wasn't really thinking of it like that.
I really wish people were forced to learn what evolution is ACTUALLY about instead of spouting all this crap about fitness to survive that is utterly meaningless. And that natural selection does not typically operate on the level of a species...
This is idiotic.
1) Survival of the fittest is a naturalistic mechanism, not a guideline for social structure.
For example it's basic scientific knowledge that opposite magnetic charges attract while like charges repel. By fundie non-logic this means that people should be attracted the those that are their exact opposites in every way, but they should be repelled by things that are similar to them.
2) Social morality is an example of survival of the fittest in macrosociological terms. (I think I've raised this point before.)
A society must control killing. Not because of any inherent wrongness in killing but do to the damage it does to a society. Societies kill all the time with wars, capitol punishment, bloodsports, ritual sacrafice and any other example of man's inhumanity to man. The important part is that society controls who gets killed and when. For this, and becuase of this society needs laws. A primitive society lacks the structure for law or the philosophical sophistication for morals but it's steeped in mysticism and superstition. Instead of law it has the concept of divine retribution and sacred law.
Say, 20,000 years back there's two paleolithic tribes, the Zug clan and the Ort clan. The Zugs have a shaman, a rudimentary system of mysticism and a couple of anthopomorphicized natural forces that will serve as deities. The Orts, while technologically similar have no mystical traditions.
In each of the tribes one caveman steals another's giant-slothchops or something. The origianl owners of the slothchops get into a fight with the thieves and someone dies. in the Ort clan the killer suffers the instictive social stigmata but is, at first unharmed. Amongst the Zugs The law of the gods is blood for blood and under the ruling of the shaman the killer must be sacraficed to sun god or whatever, case closed.
Meanwhile in the Ort clan the friends of the victim have a little blood for blood of their own, but (and this is the important part) not in a socially controlled way. It's vigilante justice at it's most raw. Problem is the killer has friends too, antd they kill the killer's killers. Thus the cycle of revenge, man's natural instict for revenge decimates the Ort clan and makes them a weak society.
When the Zugs and the Orts meet eachother conflict ensues but with no social control the Orts are too weak a society to defend against the Zugs. The mysticism that gives purpose to their killing, even if they have no understanding of the mechanism, has made the Zug's stronger. They will inevitably destroy, enslave or assimilate the Ort clan and make them subject to the strictures of Zug society. Thus between two primitive societies it's "survival of the fittest" and law/morality is one measure of fitness.
Ina couple thousand years the shamans become priests and the Zug-Ort society become Greeks or Hebrews or Aztecs or whatever.
Same goes with morals about property and theft and the rate of economic development. In a society vs. society world it's again, survival of the fittest.
That's why any society practicing Wander's retarded interpretation of survival of the fittest would inevitably be overtaken by a more "evolved" society of comparable population and technological levels. With or without awareness of the process mankind will develop laws or morals simply to survive.
ez-c: Evolution contradicts the literal-Bible god they believe in. They have no knowledge of morality, and refrain from stealing simply out of fear. If that fear were removed, they would steal. They can't comprehend that something could be "wrong" and not merely "not in my self-interest," so they figure everyone thinks that way. Therefore, they figure that people who don't believe in their god must steal, since there's no threat of devine punishment.
Anyway, that being said, it's time for our Biology Lesson, Fundie Style! (Not actual biology.)
[Classic is starting up.]
Welcome to Bible-Belt Biology. Let's review what kinds of life there are.
Gods/Good supernatural beings: Perfect. Do what they say, even if it's murder.
Demons/Bad supernatural beings: Evil. Fight them. Kill anyone you perceive as following them.
Humans: Humans are made of dirt, and are very special, so we have the right to kill animals. (See animals.)
Animals: Animals are a seperate category from humans, because they're different. And considering their interests would leave us less freedom to persue our selfish whims. Some may be highly similar to humans, but they're different, so shoot them.
Plants: These are things put here for us to eat. Some are poisonous to test our faith and/or because we're cursed.
Fungi: These are plants. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
Bacteria/Other Microbes: Satan's/Darwinists'/evolutionists' lies. They're not in the Bible, so they don't exist. Disease is caused by our own sin. Bacteria are lies, I tell you! LIES!!!!!
[stop Classic]
Anyway, evolution is a theory , not a moral principle . The former is a description of facts that forms them together into a coherent picture of how things are . The latter describes how we ought to act. "Survival of the fittest" means that those with beneficial characteristics are more likely to survive and pass on those characteristics, not that we should deem sick people "unfit" and let them die. Again, you're conflating "is" and "ought." (Not to mention that caring for the sick is in and of itself a beneficial trait!)
Afterthought: This is sort of three seperate comments, but they're all on the same subject, so I might as well leave them in one comment box.
#42588 5/25/2006 7:46:16 AM
<< Sadly enough, some people (i.e, Social Darwinists) do indeed use these principles to commit some moral repugnancies. >>
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That's because they are completely misinterpreting and misapplying them.
That's not a reason to throw out evolutionary theory as a concept, which on its own is perfectly acceptable; it's a reason to condemn those who mischaracterize and misuse it, just as it is reasonable to condemn some fundies for deliberately misinterpreting biblical scripture to support racism.
~David D.G.
WE SHOULD NOT ACCEPT THIS THEORY BECAUSE SOME OF THE BULLSHIT I MAKE UP BASED ON IT IS WRONG!!
10. Yeah, and that person is not likely to buy that brand again. But in order to keep society working, you pay that guy, because natural selection favors nice people [more or less]
9. Same as above.
The rest are just obviously bullshit.
Social Darwinism doesn't make any sense, but it doesn't discredit evolution as an explanation for the formation of life.
Here's a thought.
People live with other people.
These people have influence on your life.
People will attack what threatens them, as per survival of the fittest.
You should instead gain their favour.
If other people recognise you as a beneficial aspect, they will protect you for their own benefit.
Ergo ALTRUISM FTW!!!111!11! zed oh em gee
Get it?
10. Cars can't reproduce and don't have offspring, hence evolution is not applicable.
9. What does my surviving an accident have to do with evolution and survival of the most adaptable? Species evolve, not individuals.
8. Evolution is a description of diversity in Nature, through random mutation and natural selection. We have taken ourself out of Nature to some extent. Our brains tell us to fight disease; that's how we adapted and survive.
7. You should have sex with someone who wants to have sex with you. In about 90 percent of the cases, sex does not lead to reproduction. Which is also a facet of evolution; our children need care for several years, which means that mum and dad need to want to stick together for several years. One part of this is that our mammary glands are swollen in women all the time, not just during estrus.
6. Stealing violates trust and cooperation within the community, which in turn disrupts evolution of that group. No, stealing is not acceptable.
5. See point 6. Murdering disrupts the cooperation of the community even more than stealing. Murder is very much not acceptable.
4. Man is physically weak and needs the cooperation of others to stay alive. Responsibility is very important and comes with the functioning of a large brain. Which is obviously something you don't have.
3. Life only has the meaning you give it. Some want to suck up to imaginary friends, others want to promote the survival of others and make life enjoyable for everyone.
2. Yes.
1. Right, wrong and morals are man-made concepts, used for the cooperation of a community in helping that community to survive. See point 6 and 5.
0. You obviously don't know the first thing about evolution. It's a description of a natural process, not a set of rules to follow.
Moral reasons why evolution and survival of the fittest is wrong:
This where the creationists get confused. Survival of the fittest, means survival within an environment. It doesn't mean the survival of the strongest and most violent. We are a social animal. We cooperate and have empathy for others. That list can and does get you landed in prison.
"Moral reasons why evolution and survival of the fittest is wrong:
10. You get into a car accident and it's your fault. The car you hit is totalled. You don't have to pay damages because your car was more fit to survive.
9. You get into a car accident and it's your fault. Someone dies. You don't have to pay damages because you were more fit to survive.
8. There should be no doctors. If your immune system can't stomach a virus, you're not fit to survive. The poor and the starving shouldn't be helped because they're also not fit to survive.
7. We can have sex with anyone and everyone because we're helping the human race reproduce.
6. Stealing is acceptable.
5. Murdering and killing is acceptable.
4. There's no such thing as responsibilty. It's everyone to the last man.
3. Life has no meaning besides helping my race evolve.
2. We are animals.
1. There is no such thing as right and wrong. There is no such thing as morals."
Yes, that's nice dear.
(*Performs 'Patronise You no Jutsu': pats Wander on head *)
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Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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