Original quote:
"I say atheism can not claim absolute morality and the morals they claim are taken from Christianity. Or at the least from religion.
So I am now calling on the atheist community to prove me wrong."
Champoogne:
I was raised to believe that you should treat others as you wish to be treated. That you should never force your will on someone else. And you don't really need to be on this planet very long to realize that it's in everyone's best interests to get along. It's a lot more pleasant that way. We are all people sharing the same space and everyone's got the right to live comfortably and harmoniously. And, I simply fail to see why God must be a part of that equation. Or any other higher power.
Mademoiselle:
Who taught you that? And who taught them that? So you aren't religious and think you don't need God to be moral? Maybe your parents weren't either but maybe your grandparents were or your grandparents parents.... And this is where they got it from:
Luke 6:31 (KJV)
"31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise."
Champoogne:
Or maybe it was a long string of atheists/agnostics? Why are you assuming that if we go back far enough in time we'll eventually hit someone who believed in God?
Mademoiselle:
Because we will. Unless you can prove otherwise.
Champoogne:
It doesn't work that way, sorry.
Extreme logic fail.
Mademoiselle:
Yes it does. Provide proof that every single one of your ancestors have never ever ever been exposed to and influenced by Christianity.
20 comments
What do you need with a construct that does not exist, in a universe which does not deal with absolutes?
Are you having problems with your continued, civilised existence, absent a set of such?
You can demand all the proof you want, yet it`s burden on you will never be lessened by this little mental trick.
the golden rule or some variation of it is part of many religions and philosophies. many of those dated to times before Christianity could've affect them.
if you need god to understand this behavior, you can't claim higher moral ground.
Unfortunately Mademoiselle is more likely to be correct than Champoogne ("Or maybe it was a long string of atheists/agnostics? Why are you assuming that if we go back far enough in time we'll eventually hit someone who believed in God?"), as the further back you go, the more likely people were to believe in religions, God, or superstitions.
The idiot is probably right to some extent, but misses the point that an atheist obviously does not believe in God, and so anything created in a religious context is still thought up by a human, even if it was an exceptional one like Jesus, Buddha or the Prophet.
"Provide proof that every single one of your ancestors have never ever ever been exposed to and influenced by Christianity."
Provide proof that anything would have been different if not a single one of Champoogne's ancestors were never, ever, ever exposed to and influenced by Christianity.
This is just stupid. The thing is that the Golden Rule doesn't even need a god involved in it to work. Simply treat others as you want to be treated. That's it. No need for threats of eternal damnation or promises of eternal reward needed.
And "treat others as you want to be treated" isn't even in the bible. The closest you can come is Jesus saying "Love one another as I have loved you."
Your own bibble states that morality is innate. Paul uses this argument against the worldly Romans when he says that even though they may not know The Holy Scriptures (TM) they have no excuse because we inherently know what is right and wrong without having to be taught.
Exhibit A (from Romans, Chapter 1):
19. Because that which may be known of God IS MANIFEST IN THEM; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I don't see "God" mentioned anywhere in that sentence. Sure, it was mentioned in the Bible, but it was also mentioned in pre-Bible literature, which includes Ancient Egypt.
""I say atheism can not claim absolute morality and the morals they claim are taken from Christianity. Or at the least from religion.
So I am now calling on the atheist community to prove me wrong." "
Atheism is older than Christianity. here is your proof.
Provide proof that every single one of your ancestors have never ever ever been exposed to and influenced by atheism.
"So I am now calling on the atheist community to prove me wrong."
Jonathan Edwards .
His star in the ascendant since he recanted of his beliefs. Presenting the 2012 London Paralympics for Channel 4. He's now the go-to guy for sports presenting on TV; 2014 Sochi Winter Olympics for the BBC. Glasgow Commonwealth Games for the same.
And do you think that the ultra -Politically Correct Channel 4 would have him present their coverage of the 2016 Rio De Janeiro Paralympics if his image was anything less than perfect , even though it's said that his doing so for the previous Paralympics was a huge success...?!
...can you say the letters 'Q', 'E' and 'D', Madyouinhell?
"I say atheism can not claim absolute morality and the morals they claim are taken from Christianity. Or at the least from religion.
So I am now calling on the atheist community to prove me wrong."
A. You're right. Most of us in western society have had our morality influenced by Christian sources.
B. That does not make Christianity (or religion) the only source of morality.
C. Many of us tend to reject portions of the morality given in the bible. In fact, most Christians I've talked to tend to reject portions of the biblically supplied morality, as well.
D. Atheism does not, never has, and never will assert that it has any stance on morality. Atheism is simply a lack of accepting the claim that any gods exist.
E. Admitting that religion has had some influence on morality does not, in any way, get you any closer to demonstrating that a god or gods exist.
"I say atheism can not claim absolute morality and the morals they claim are taken from Christianity. Or at the least from religion.
So I am now calling on the atheist community to prove me wrong."
I don't see any atheists going around and stoning people for wearing the wrong clothes, eating the wrong food, and having sex with the wrong people. That's what your book says is the morally correct thing to do.
The only problem with the idea that morality comes from the Bible is that the Bible includes stuff that even many religious folk agree is some seriously evil stuff. Of course, they come up with various ways to excuse/explain/disregard that, but they do agree it's seriously evil stuff. But if morality comes from the Bible, where are they getting the idea it's evil? If morality came from the Bible, atheist and religious folk might still be arguing about whether morality comes from the Bible, but both would agree that the rules the Bible give are 100% correct, including ideas that are, in reality, now routinely disregarded by the vast majority of Christians.
As pointed out in many debates there's tons of horrible ideas pushed away for centuries that the Bible promoted, slavery for one, the acceptance of incest, pedophilia, cultural/racial/religious prejudice and mass killings for others.
I don't know if W.L. Craig started this "the Western world got it's morals from Christianity" but he spouts it in every debate (he actual spouts the exact same shit every debate anyway, it's why he insists on the formal speech block format) and has been doing it for over a decade. It's nonsense but the creationists have embraced it and parrot it as if they have a killer point.
"Who taught you that? And who taught them that? So you aren't religious and think you don't need God to be moral? Maybe your parents weren't either but maybe your grandparents were or your grandparents parents...."
Even if they were, so what? This might be shocking to you, but a lot of people are actually capable of thinking for themselves and coming to their own conclusions, conclusions which may or may not be in complete contradiction to certain beliefs held by their parents. I know for a fact that I have a few beliefs about moral situations that are entirely different from my parents' views. That you seem to assume that "morality" is just passed on in an unchanging form down the generations says more about you.
"Yes it does. Provide proof that every single one of your ancestors have never ever ever been exposed to and influenced by Christianity."
I can't do this, as I know for certain that my dad was occasionally forced to go to church as a child.
But I have a counter-proposition for you: provide proof that the entirety of any given person and their ancestors' exposure to Christianity and the influence it had on them was 100% positive rather than negative. Maybe, like in my dad's case, they had a look at whatever Christian doctrines, principles, practices, and/or beliefs they were exposed to and concluded "Wow! This is a complete load of shit! I'm going to remember what it is that Christians believe and do so I can do the opposite."
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
To post a comment, you'll need to Sign in or Register . Making an account also allows you to claim credit for submitting quotes, and to vote on quotes and comments. You don't even need to give us your email address.