TimeToTurn #fundie

TimeToTurn #fundie fstdt.com

Yes we can and should legislate freedom of religion away, because freedom of religion protects people like David J. Stewart, Steven Anderson, the Haredi, and all the Islamist imams in the West who somehow avoid being arrested for terrorism.

And all the people being "but, we'll make moderate Muslims turn Wahhabi!", don't make me laugh, if you turn Wahhabi because you won't fit into Western society, that means you never belonged there.

45 comments

old comment by Skidie

Why exactly is this here? Because some of our posters got overzealous in defending toxic irrational idiocies on the grounds that you are somehow entitled to it specificaly instead of just as another ideology.

Fuck Godwin, replace your precious religous group with nationalists and the more extreme versions of such with nazis. Yes you are entitled to your nationalistic lunacies, but you are not allowed to promote them openly if it collides with any other human right. Yes, you can be a nazi but try and be so publicly. Now you can be a catholic and you`ll be allowed to promote all kinds of odious crap on human sexuality because it appears to be your religion, such as you can be a muslim extremist and be proud of your violent, human rights denying views in public also because this just happens to be your faith. See the problem yet?

I believe this is what TimeToTurn wrote: That you do not deserve special protection for an ideology which conflicts with human rights simply because it`s called a religion.

@Pharaoh Bastethotep

So it is your belief that these pieces of expression must be given special privledges above that of other, secular ones? Because if so, then I am definitely tired of your bile against anyone with half a sense. Nobody here wants to destroy your precious free society and you are reacting like a triggered child.

Some at most like me for example want to ultimately leave it with a group of like minded fellows to start something new, without the terminal flaws which will in time corrode this civilisation such as I`ve already witnessed in the place I live.

@Dyz

Precisely.

old comment by Pharaoh Bastethotep

>Skidie:
"That you do not deserve special protection for an ideology which conflicts with human rights simply because it`s called a religion."
I agree. However, I do not interpret TimeToTurn that way.

"So it is your belief that these pieces of expression must be given special privledges above that of other, secular ones?"
No.

"Because if so, then I am definitely tired of your bile against anyone with half a sense."
A baseless accusation.

"you are reacting like a triggered child."
I am not. I fear that you are projecting.

"Some at most like me for example want to ultimately leave it with a group of like minded fellows to start something new"
Will those who become disillusioned with your group be able to leave? What will happen if disagreements within the group break out? What will happen to children who do not share the visions of their parents? This pretty much screams "CULT!" to me.
What about those who do not form a sufficiently large subculture to seclude themselves in autarkic communes? What about those who do not want to, but would like to life within the greater society, part of both mainstream and their subculture?
Pluralism is the realisation that people are distinct individuals different from each other, having different talents, different problems, different goals, different patterns of thought, and that, as long as these visions do not conflict, everyone deserves the chance to live his/her/its/x's life in a way that is fulfilling to him/her/it/x.

"without the terminal flaws"
Ah, I see...

old comment by Skidie

@Pharaoh Bastethotep

Don`t think I am, seeing as you`ve immidiately took to try and dismantle a simple statement at the end.

I am not trying to discuss my vision here, not with you of all people but know that the idea is for a truly volountary society, where only those of each generation who wish to stay(the enforced nature of our current societies creates more problems than it solves, ideally every person on earth should be able to at any point travel to and settle in the desired country of their choice which would force the states themselves to become directly competitive with each other over human rights, social security, educational standards and economy models. Same would probably go for those who`d like to attract nazi types instead) will stay. Otherwise a lot of groundles accusations and screaming of CULT even before any question could be potentialy answered.

You can see nothing since nothing was said on my part, you have no idea which flaws would that be. You assume too much out of simple words, perhaps you level your aggresion at me because in your zeal, you consider the current western civilisation a pinnacle of all that can be, but it is your concern, not mine that you wish to live in a world governed by a changing shifts of prom kings and queens.

To the topic at hand you have my apology for the "bile", obviously we disagree over the interpretation part, which is no base for aggresion.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

Fundies - via their behaviour - are doing a perfectly good job of legislating themselves out of existence.

Otherwise, Roe vs. Wade would've lasted as long as Prohibition at least: and that was an amendment in the US Constitution, no less.

And it's precisely because of their homophobia that DOMA was declared unconstitutional, Prop.8 was repealed, culminating in the 26th June SCOTUS decision. Thus fundies don't have a legal leg to stand on, re. LGBT people, any more.

And it's precisely because of their fundieness.

No WBC here in the UK. Section 5 of the Public Order Act may have something to do with that. And - in both 2012 London & more recently in 2016 Rio - why didn't the devout Muslim Mo Farah, after winning the 5,000 & 10,000 Metres in both Olympics, parade round the stadium with an IS flag...? Speaking of which, the Mall, in 2013:

image

Queen, Country, Flag, Allah. And in that order.

Perhaps it has something to do with not wanting to live under Sharia law - certainly as that enforced by the Wahhabi clerics in Saudi Arabia - and instead living in a democratic country based on secular Rule of Law. The C-of-E is still here.

Being free to practice their religion in a country which has a state religion: the Church of England, hasn't done them any harm. It doesn't affect me, as an Atheist. My best friend is a long-time C-of-E Christian.

Mo Farah parading round the stadiums in London & Rio De Janeiro with the Union Flag.

Certain Theists being non-fundie. There is a difference.

old comment by Skidie

@Anon-e-moose

I applaud your enthusiasm, if not consistency of your example. See the problem is you`re talking about SOME countries, always the ones where the religious madness does not take hold. Could you say any of that stuff about my patria?

We have our artists and everyday folk alike being punished by fines almost weekly for some imagined slights against someone`s faith, even as much as saying the opinion that bible was written by drugged cretins on some third rate talk show makes one a victim of our laws.

They use homophobia(among other hateful shit) over here freely to actualy attract people to their cause, certain nazi priest has recently made a name for himself with almost no repercusions by publicly demanding his "true patriots" slaughter all the "degenerates and jewish agents". If you can get your hands on the footage with some english comment, do so if only for educational reasons, this entire assembly looks precisely like the thrid reich rally, complete with civilian population bellowing cries of approval. These are not some drunk neonazi skinheads, this is the new NSDAP sturmbgrigade: ONR and they`ve already been used at least once to publicly brutalize our meager opposition with our police force helpless in face of their orders.

We`ve got a single openly gay mayor(and he outclasses just about anybody in our political world by miles), he can no longer even speak publicly without some fascist fuck trying to attack him.

Over here, they`re winning and they are doing so precisely by their xenophobic, bigoted and utterly populistic agenda. Our priests are not even one bit short of the famous "They eat da poo poo".

This place used to resemble a first world country at least for a good decade, now it`s been infected beyond repair. These days I find myself watching V for Vendetta getting closer and closer to a documentary.

You sit comfortably in UK and proclaim things as if they were universal truths, yet even you felt the first quake of the coming horror with brexit and what happens right after, for your people it might not be too late(I truly hope so), for mine it already was when Kaczynsky took power.

old comment by SpukiKitty

These Barabbans just don't get it, do they?

Haredis, Barabbans, Wahabbis, Hindutva, Saffrons....They're ALL THE SAME....Evil authoritarian jerks who use religion as a tool of Fascist control rather than a path of spiritual growth and humanitarian love. Screw them and send them to Inferno for a long (but finite) period of Pineapple-Butt purgatorial punishment purification!
[IMG]http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f226/SpukiKitty/All%20My%20Fab%20Reaction%20GIFS/hitlerpineapplebuttgiphy_zpsea2thylr.gif[/IMG]
....This is temporary because infinite punishment for finite bad deeds is just as deranged as Frummery.

[NOTE: Barabbans = ChristoFrums.
Since they reject the gentler, humanitarian, truly spiritual Way of Yeshua Bar Miriam-Yosef and embrace the ways of a violent radical called Barabbas/Bar Abbas. I interpret that bit of the Passion story as humanity rejecting the real Christ for Antichrist. "Republican Jesus" and it's earlier and non-American versions is The Antichrist.]

The folks who want to ban religion/spiritual faith completely (like NeoMatrix) are just as stupid. Are you willing to ban my egalitarian, pro-freedom, pro-gender-equality, pro-LGBTAQ, pro-democracy, pro-sexuality NeoPaganism, too?

Look! Spiritual faith HELPS many people cope with life. It has helped me! You may say "It's a crutch" but I say, "Some people NEED crutches. Crutches are not evil!"

I believe that life continues after death. I see that as absolute truth! The spiritual is REAL & PLAUSIBLE to ME!

I respect an Atheist's right NOT to believe! I am all for an Atheist's right to be fully welcomed and respected in society! I feel that when Religion & Government mix, BOTH become perverted into something horrible! Religion is only bad when it gets Frummy and is combined with Government. Keep it out of Government and reject the Frums and Faith is great.

Anti-Theists, while well-meaning, are misguided and they're just as irritating as the Religious nuts! They're Frums on behalf of Atheism. Should they take over the government they would be just as bad as the Religionists!

As for the recent uptick in the Far-Right, Brexit, etc.....it's just an example of a political version of an Extinction Burst.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction_%28psychology%29

There's still a SIZABLE amount of people who know better and are fighting the Righties. There's even people fighting Brexit right now! Some are even saying that Brexit isn't binding and it can be ignored. As long as there's a majority that knows better that keeps up the fight, there is hope.

When France decided to ban those "Burkinis", there was a MASSIVE uproar and the ban was repealed!

Xenophobia is not the answer! The clowns in DAESH are COUNTING on our xenophobia. If we welcome Muslims with open arms and make our welcoming voices known, the Muslims won't be so inclined to be brainwashed by Wahabbis.

In the U.S.A.; There's a HUGE chance that Hillary will win and that the GOP will lose House & Senate seats. There's a big shakeup going on. Many laws that restrict voting rights are being struck down and the Far-Right is eating itself. Trump's insanity has been A BLESSING to American Progressivism!

Finally; There only SEEMS to be a lot more Fascist freaks because they tend to be louder and more exciting for News Show ratings. Also; A lot of sane Progressive people don't bother to vote. If EVERYONE VOTED stuff like Brexit would be a pipe-dream and LaPen would be some loon on the street corner.

It's not too late! Not even near too late! This isn't "Air Strip One". There is hope! True; There's backlashes, setbacks and some things going backward but the general trend is....roughly....for much of the world....forward!

old comment by Salami

The problem with removing freedom of religion is that it eliminates the protections keeping minority religious groups from being systemically oppressed. Imagine if some fundie turned the repeal on Muslims or Jews, deciding that they aren't worthy of being tolerated anymore and passing laws that keep them from having a good quality of life. Or outlawed sane Christians and only tolerated the most intolerant of views. I don't think anybody here would like that very much, but it could very well be possible if the government doesn't go out of its way to set limits on actions against religions.

I do have some sympathy towards TTT-- its easy to look at frums being very public about how they're exploiting the system and forget about those who really need it. But that doesn't take away the need for it. Think of the rational people, the good Muslims, Jews, Christians, etc.-- their voices need all the protection they can get, especially the Muslims' considering how stigmatized Islam is the West as of now.

I agree that there needs to be a bigger push for legislative reform in dealing with religion in the US. Tax breaks definitely have to go, for one, because most religious institutions have some form of donation jar to keep them alive. I think the US should also be less lenient when a Christian individual is caught participating in hate crime-- its freedom of religion, not freedom to be a terrorist. I'll probably add more later, but I hope you see the point that freedom of religion needs to stay.

old comment by Skidie

@SpukiKitty

Always an optimist I see...

To be honest, never cared much for crutches and you know I`d rather cut my leg off and replace it than use one, but I`m the very idea of Morgenstern alive(pride, rebelion and empathy, these three combined in equal measures make me who I am) and tend to understand what works for me might not for others.

As long as said crutch does not hinder others or you don`t go around convincing everyone they require one too(or that we are all slaves to the device), I`m fine with all sorts of the kind. Yours in particular seem to be almost transparent from where I stand.

Frankly, in my ideal vision of terran society religious beliefs should still be confined to the private residences of those interested in such and kept out of public square altogether, but by no means forcefuly extinguished, honestly I hope new developments in technology and our understanding of the dance of the universe around us will phase out the irrational servilism altogether, but to count on that would be sillynes.

By my very nature forcing control on unwilling sentients is disgusting to the very core of my being.

old comment by TimeToTurn

No, I actually don't believe in freedom of religion, precisely for the reasons I mentioned. If your freedom doesn't harm anyone, then you can practice it. But it's obvious with fundamentalist religion that the religion itself harms people (especially women and children, who go on to propogate the religion). If religion is the opium of the people, then fundamentalist religion is the heroin of the people.

I have a libertarian-inspired view of freedom--if it isn't harming anyone, then it's okay. Religion is normally okay, thus freedom of religion is implicit within it. But these people are part of an evil, self-propogating belief system, of which includes many "moderate Muslims". When freedom oversteps it's boundaries, freedom needs to be restricted by government force.

old comment by TimeToTurn

Time for some takedowns:

@121

The people and groups and followers of them I mentioned certainly don't deserve to practice their religion. I've said it myself--the scariest people in any video of Steven Anderson's sermons isn't Pastor Steve, it's the congregation cheering and shouting "Amen!" at his statements.

@Mister Spak

I'm right, and they're wrong. That's the difference. Basic philosophy--the ends justify the means. Very little can be done in the name of justice that leads to justice that is actually wrong.

@Doubting Thomas

Sounds good to me. Ideas like the French Cult of Reason or the Soviet concept (sadly never put in place) of God-Building sound like an ideal state religion.

@Anon-e-moose

But you took away their freedom. Since western society has such a huge basis in "no tolerance for intolerance", as evidenced by prohibitions on hate speech, etc., it's incredible that people haven't taken it to it's logical conclusion and started intolerated the hives of it like the individuals mentioned above.

@Psycho Tits

It worked to a pretty big degree. The Russian Church was brought to its knees. The biggest flaw was not constructing a new religion to replace it. Religion is a great brainwashing tool, but it is true that many religious people have their actions checked and modified by their beliefs. Hence a system like the Russian God-Building would encourage positive beliefs even if the majority of people never thought of it.

@Salami

That's why you don't define the action itself as evil. If I shoot a guy trying to a rape a woman, that would be pretty good, obviously different than if I shot the woman and thanked the rapist for cornering her. Persecuting Jews (besides some Jews like the Haredi) or whatever sane Muslims are out there (I know they exist) is therefore different than persecuting religious nuts. Even if the same techniques are being used.

@SpukiKitty

Ugh, American progressivism. Trump only exists because they spend all their time race baiting and engaging in identity politics instead of focusing on the issues.

The idea is phase religion out sooner or later--let it rot. But there are ideas for those who need religion as a crutch--Cult of Reason, God-Building, other such ideas. I've praised the Soviet anti-religious campaign before (the Russian church had spent centuries asking for it), but Lenin's emphasis on atheism (in opposition to worship of man) was pretty stupid, and they should've taken the church infrastructure and turned it to the worship of humanity. I'm not an atheist nor an anti-theist (I can't hate something that doesn't exist)--if there was position I would be, it would be the worship of humanity's possibility. But I suppose I have a bit of crusader spirit and am willing to unleash it on the injust in the best way I can--through words.

@Hasan Prishtina

Now a few generations under that, what might happen? Seems like an interesting possibility. Lots of good ol' Abrahamic religions in Albania...

old comment by Salami

@TimeToTurn

On one hand, you're claiming that you don't believe in religious freedom. On the other hand, you say that religious people have the right to practice their beliefs so long as they are not intrusive or harmful to others-- which is essentially the definition of freedom of religion that I put forward. On that part, you basically agree with me in everything but label.

Though I would actually flip the first part of your direct response. The act of rape is the definition of evil, taking control over the body and purposefully exploiting it for selfish purposes, but if the rapist was taught from an early age or indoctrinated into believing that its justified, than the rapist wouldn't be evil but rather deeply, horribly ignorant. Ignorance isn't evil because the person doesn't know that what s/he is doing is horrible and thus doesn't understand the morality of his/her actions. Good people are also capable of doing horrible things-- if an otherwise upstanding citizen shot somebody thinking that s/he was about to kill somebody but was innocent, the citizen would still be morally good but would still have committed an act of evil in shooting an innocent. That doesn't mean that you have to forgive or spare people who have committed acts of evil, but in most cases, its the actions that are evil, not the person. Ignorance and stupidity are dangerous things.

"Persecuting Jews (besides some Jews like the Haredi) or whatever sane Muslims are out there (I know they exist) is therefore different than persecuting religious nuts. Even if the same techniques are being used."

That's rather idealistic, but the reality is, fundies would latch onto lack of protection for religious people as a wedge for persecuting those who disagree with them. Essentially removing legal protection of human rights is a slippery slope-- there's a darn good reason why those laws came to exist in the first place, and that's to prevent or stop people from passing bad laws or taking inhumane measures. In America's case, it would worsen acceptance of Muslims, since some unfortunately important people believe mosques to be terrorist breeding grounds and are looking for any opening they can take to get as many mosques as possible blocked or shut down, reality be damned. I don't want that, and I don't think you do either. So let's keep freedom of religion laws-- they're not without flaws, but the alternative of not having them is much, much worse.

old comment by Insult to Rocks

@TimeToTurn
You seem to think that you are arguing from a position of power here. Let's be clear;even if everything you said was true(and I believe it's quite the opposite) it would not allow for the destruction of religion, of any kind. Fundamentalists of all stripes have weathered far more significant attacks against them than anything a bunch of overeager nonbelievers could muster up, even if freedom of religion were to be repealed. The more likely outcome is for the Fundamentalists to do away with any sense of restraint and simply eliminate anything or anyone in their way. We atheists are not nearly as threatening as some of us like to thing.
Anyway, even if we were to eliminate religion, somehow, history has shown how easy it is for secular cults of personality to fill the gap. So we expend lives and destroy freedoms to end up in essentially the same spot.

old comment by Skidie

@TimeToTurn

Got to say I like the "cult of humanity" idea. Certainly not a perfect solution but as a transitional measure for those who indeed require their crutches this might be a solid option as long as it allows for self improvements and doesn`t just become the enforcer of genetic purity or some such...

I don`t worship by my very nature but if that concept was to be made real, I`d be the first to enlist.

Also I believe it would be a good idea for every member to be required to participate in some way in the improvement of living conditions for others of our kind, wheter it be cooking in the soup kitchen, taking civil cases pro bono, teaching underprivledged kids or even actively helping organise resource redistribution for those in need. Basicaly my point being that it should not be a lip service, once a week ritual fun but a way of life complete with certain ideals... From everyone according to their ability to others according to their needs.

@Insult to Rocks

Why we need transhumanism 101: To banish the very idea of numerical superiority that many can overcome few and hence demand their control.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

@TimeToTurn

You'd better take it up with the MPs in Parliament. They make the laws. Guy Fawkes tried to 'take them down': we now have Bonfire Night every 5th November to celebrate his fail, so like I say, take it up with those at the Palace of Westminster, re. take it down. Passing by Parliament last week, going to/from Waterloo station, there were police armed with H&K MP5s at the entry gates. Good luck with that.

So why don't the Church of England, and Moderate Muslims such as Mo Farah and those at Queen Elizabeth II's Diamond Jubilee celebrations have a problem with said legislation?

Non-Fundie Theists. There is a difference.

Is it my fault that the fundies in the US are legislating themselves out of existence...?

@Insult to Rocks

TTT's position of power, certainly at the gates of Parliament here in the UK?

Less than zero.

But I wish him luck with his 'taking down' of the Palace of Westminster. The film based on a certain graphic novel by Alan Moore is not a documentary, however. [/"Olympus/London Has Fallen"]

old comment by Pharaoh Bastethotep

>TimeToTyrannise:
No. Just no.
"I am different in that I am right" and "The end justifies the means" is the origin of Every. Single. Mayor. Atrocity. In. History. You share your mindset with every single fanatical tyrant, from Drakon to al-Baghdadi. Fanatics must never be allowed to come even close to power.
Of course, in reality you are far from right, singing praises to a falsified economical theory even as it demonstates its failures again and fantasising about death-squads massacring everyone you dislike. Even here, you demonstate your ignorance, apparently unaware that Communist regimes did indeed try to replace the traditional religions with Communism and Party-worship.
You are a monster - hopefully a monster that will never be in a position to live out its monstrous nature, but a monster nonetheless.

old comment by Azereaux

@Pharaoh Bastethotep

While I also disagree with Triple T's position, and yes, I did flinch when I saw "I'm right, and they're wrong. That's the difference. Basic philosophy--the ends justify the means. Very little can be done in the name of justice that leads to justice that is actually wrong"... and agree that the statement is one befitting a quote on this site, seeing them as a monster?

No. On the path there, but not there yet.

As I said before, this is one for the "He who fights monsters" file. The above quote is indeed showing nearness to the edge. Believing one is inherently right, and that ones actions are therefore inherently right, is a sign that one has taken a flying leap off the slippery slope. However, looking at the rest of what was said to others, I'd say that, while overzealous and nearing reactionary in their phrasing, we're dealing with someone that is, in fact, salvageable.

Nutcases of all stripes (Theist, Atheist, Vegan, Feminist, Whatever Red Pill people are calling themselves today, It) can be dangerous to society, or as we have unfortunately seen in other posts here, dangerous to individuals therein. And preventing them from actually harming others is a laudable goal. However, taking away their excuses doesn't work. Tried that during an abusive relationship: take one excuse for abuse or wrongdoing away, and a new one takes its place.

Part of what Time to Turn wants from what I can tell is a prevention of the damage we see here. The methodology, however, is where the flaw lies. An 'ends justify the means' mindset is itself potentially dangerous, thus creating the same sort of problem you attempt to defeat. In other words, it leads to becoming the very monster you fight.

TTT isn't there yet, but this and that quote don't look good. Both you and they can be better.

old comment by Psycho Tits

Sorry, TTT, but your "takedown" needs a little work.

The Orthodox church went underground. It never came even close to disappearing. Had it, the resurgence of piety in Russia would not exist and the Patriarch of Moscow and Rus' would not exist either...or if he did, he would not have the kind of power he currently does. (Look up Kirill, a dick with power.)

And are you seriously suggesting it's okay to craft an alternate religion to replace the one you attempted to legislate out of existence? (North Korea actually did something like this: Juche. To maintain the fiction requires that the country be so isolated and thus poor that the people there sometimes eat one another for survival.)

That's not crazy AT ALL. Or counterproductive.

Also, you might want to look up the term "fundamental freedom"-- as in "freedom that is not up for fucking negotiation."

ETA: Atheists, non-theists, anti-theists, deists, pantheists - all are, even when lumped together, severely outnumbered by members of any one of the mainstream faiths. If you repealed freedom of religion, no matter what you were hoping would happen, you'll end up replacing freedom with not your idea but rather with the majority's accepted religious beliefs. You would bring persecution down on yourself, and on everyone else.

When a freedom is lost, and so not guaranteed - when it's fundamental - then something will fill the vacuum, and that something is usually the dominant cultural ideology.

TimeToTurn #fundie fstdt.com

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