Fading Light #fundie

Fading Light #fundie stormfront.org

[Two HIV+ men rape a 17-year old boy.]

Well, all you homo-lovers out there, here's a little more blood on your hands. You saw the study data the same as we did that showed homosexuals to be thirty times (30!) more likely to molest children than straights are, that they are substantially more likely to have STDs, but you were so very worried about appearing intolerant.

Well, you have helped rape this boy as surely as they have.

55 comments

old comment by John_in_Oz

Groth and Birnbaum (1978) studied 175 adult males who were convicted in Massachusetts of sexual assault against a child. None of the men had an exclusively homosexual adult sexual orientation. 83 (47%) were classified as "fixated;" 70 others (40%) were classified as regressed adult heterosexuals; the remaining 22 (13%) were classified as regressed adult bisexuals. Of the last group, Groth and Birnbaum observed that "in their adult relationships they engaged in sex on occasion with men as well as with women. However, in no case did this attraction to men exceed their preference for women....There were no men who were primarily sexually attracted to other adult males..." (p.180).

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

old comment by John

There's only one study I've ever seen that suggested homosexuals more likely to molest children, and that was a lazy and ridiculous "study" based, not on the sexual orientation of the pedophile, but on the gender of the victim. The author simply concluded that because a lot of the victims were boys, the pedophile must have been gay - which is patently stupid, since there are many examples of men who are heterosexual with adults or have no attraction to adults of either sex ("fixated") molesting boys. Boys just aren't watched as closely, so there's more opportunity.

Studies where the actual sexual orientation of pedophile himself was examined showed no particular bias toward homosexuals.

old comment by Xotan

Gutter press cannot even spell properly.

..."stripped him naked from the waste [sic] down"

The youth is then reported to have left "by foot". The idiom is "on foot". "By foot" means that a foot came to the door to collect him - like a taxi.

The questions arise:

- was this a gay bar?

- if so what was a 17 year old doing there?

- age of consent in Spain? I believe 17, if not younger.

Conclusion, it is not beyond possibility that this young man is in part responsible for what happened. Thankfully he did not contract HIV. It is no credit to his savoir faire that he got himself into this situation. Although I could never approve of the action of the older men, if the young man is old enough (and stupid enough) to drink himself into oblivion, then he is old enough to accept a fair proportion of the blame for whatever the consequences may be. If he was not capable of controlling himself and the situation he was in, he should not have been out alone.

And why do I have the impression that if something similar had happened to a woman, Fading Light would blame her?

As for supposed study data, citation badly needed. Otherwise no credibility allowed.

old comment by shykid

No, I didn't see this "study" data, because it doesn't exist. You and the perpetrators are the only people here with blood on their hands: the perpetrators for obvious reasons, and you for being sick and vulturous enough to try to smear an entire class of people using a heinous but isolated act that violated and traumatized another human being in the worst possible way. You a sick monster.

If a couple of straight guys did something like this to a girl, the last thing you would hear me say is something like, "Well, all you hetero-lovers out there, here's a little more blood on your hands." (Don't even try to say there's not a small minority of fucked-up straight people who do shit like this tooand, hell, since rape is about power rather than sexual gratification, the guys who did this particular act could have been straight for all you know.)

@Xotan: Blaming the victim (and trying to "correct" someone's grammatically acceptable English when your own command of the language screams "I'm obviously not a native speaker"). Classy. I actually respected and kind of admired you until I read this bullshit.

old comment by Wehpudicabok

First of all, my sympathies are with the poor boy whose life was ruined by these two despicable men. That being said...

Always funny how many people make offhand references to "studies", yet how few of them actually have the studies to back them up.

Here's mine. Psychology department of the University of California, Davis.

"Groth and Birnbaum (1978) studied 175 adult males who were convicted in Massachusetts of sexual assault against a child. None of the men had an exclusively homosexual adult sexual orientation." (emphasis added)

"Dr. Carole Jenny and her colleagues reviewed 352 medical charts, representing all of the sexually abused children seen in the emergency room or child abuse clinic of a Denver children's hospital during a one-year period ... The molester was a gay or lesbian adult in fewer than 1% [of cases] in which an adult molester could be identified only 2 of the 269 cases (Jenny et al., 1994)."

That took about two minutes of research. Overcoming stupidity, however, can take a lifetime.

@anonymous poster immediately above me:

I hope you understand what the OP apparently doesn't: "30% of cases are homosexual in nature" does not mean "gays are 30 times more likely than straights to molest." After all, by the same study, 70% of cases are heterosexual. Therefore straights are 70 times more likely to molest than gays?!? Of course not.

Edit: JOHN IN OZ STOP BEING FASTER THAN ME WITH YOUR GOOGLING!!! :(

Just kidding ;)

old comment by

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old comment by

old comment by Xotan

@ J. James & shykid

Blaming the victim? My intention was to be sympathetic to him but critical of his lack of a sense of danger.

It is a fact that the young man drank so much that he passed out. There is no indication that his drinking was not voluntary. It is undeniable that this led to the opportunity for the alleged rape by the barmen. (Alleged for legal reasons. Have they been condemned in a court yet?) The young man of his own volition acted irresponsibly and put himself into of danger of all kinds of things - he could have been robbed or even murdered. As it happens it was rape. Bad, but at least he is still alive.

Should it have happened? Of course not. He was taken advantage of. Do I approve of what happened. Certainly not. I made all of this clear.

But there remains the question of responsibility. This young man drank irresponsibly and came to grief as a result. He rendered himself unconscious and handed the opportunity to the perpetrators on a plate. This is also fact.

I sympathise with him, and am thankful he did not contract HIV, but his self-induced unconsciousness meant he was not in comtrol of things. Had he remained even reasonably sober he would likely not have got into this terrible situation.

It is hardly blaming the victim to state the facts we have been given.

He has learned a tough lesson that will likely haunt his life.

@ shykid - again

as it happens I grew up bilingually. English was one of the languages. I now have lived for many years in a place where I seldom, if ever, use it. Language changes over time, so if it pleases you, I'll happily concede your point on this score. My English is undoubtedly dated.

old comment by Xotan

@ Canadia

"She was putting herself at risk, going out dressed provacatively. I don't think she deserved to be raped, but if she hadn't willingly engaged in such activity it might have been avoided."

But this is not a parallel. Your hypothetical woman has not drunk herself unconscious. She could be carying mace or a whistle in her bag.

Let us be clear, never have I said that anyone deserved to be raped. On the contrary. I have condemned rapists. So please do not put words into my mouth.

Is it not a fact that if this youth had been sober (let's say even drinking moderately) he would have been able to defend himself, or make his escape?

I would maintain your hyothetical woman's right to dress as she pleases and not be unmolested. That, though, presumes a world where everyone is decent and there is universal respect - where sex molesters and rapists do not operate. Likewise, I maintain the same right for this young man to become unconscious with alcohol, if he wishes, even though he may be breaking the law. His choice. It would be foolish, however, to miss the fact there there are those who will take advantage, sexually or otherwise, if they get the opportunity.

In essence the argument is being made that it is OK not to behave responsibly; this is ignoring the often harsh realities of this world. It presumes there should be no expectation of consequences. There is, however, a wide difference between having a right to do something and the wisdom of doing so. This is the kernel of the matter.

Canadia, let me put the case: you are a mother or father old enough have a son of 17 who is going out and drinking. Would you not worry for his safety? Would you not expect him to act responsibly lest something similar (or worse) happen to him?

old comment by J. James

@Xotan

You REALLY need to draw a line between "Preventable tragedy" and "The victim bears responsibility for his rape."

There is NEVER any blame for someone who was forced to do something against their will. Period. There is no such thing. You could be a self-medicated fully-naked supermodel that is passed out in the seediest, most lawless alley in Mogadishu, Somalia and you STILL bear zero responsibility for being raped against your will. Stupid, yes. Culpable, no.

It works the other way, too: if someone is, say, asleep in their own home, and they are attacked in a break in, they are not "less" responsible for the attack because they did everything "right." Let's add another detail to the metaphor: that victim forgot to lock up their home properly. Are they suddenly "more responsible" for the rape? No.

And that's what I'm getting at here: there is no splitting hairs when it comes to victimhood. Is little Anne Frank more responsible for being extinguished in the concentration camps because she didn't have the forethought to learn how to use a machine gun and kill her pursuers? No. Is a woman more responsible for being raped because she didn't carry Mace in her purse? NO.

There is no way I can drill this into your head enough: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS VICTIM RESPONSIBILITY FOR A RAPE.

By the way, I don't know if you have ever heard this before, but alcohol is known to impair judgment. Shocker, I know! Still doesn't make him any more or less responsible, though!

P.S.- I noticed you're looking at this entirely backwards. You are clearly falling for hindsight bias- "of course this random string of events will inevitably lead to rape! After all, it happened, didn't it? Therefore everyone involved should have seen it coming!"

Fading Light #fundie stormfront.org

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