Well the truth is that [Nelson] Mandela is a monster, who tortured and murdered. He was propped up by idiots who thought that blacks could ever live side by side with anyone (including themselves), and that Apartheid (which allowed blacks a somewhat peaceful way of life, BTW), was pure evil.
Whites foolishly caved to worldwide pressure, and handed over the country. Result? Easily predicable and disgusting. I’m sure you approve? What? You had no idea?
32 comments
I love it when someone so nauseatingly ignorant of basic history tries to act as an authority on the matter. South Africa is hardly a land of milk and honey, but it is a LOT better now than under Apartheid. And yes Mandella was a terrorist, because that's what he was called by the brutal, oppressive government he was fighting against. I'm sure the implications of that statement will fly right over your head.
During the second world war, the American government tried to get British pubs to segregate- some would have been blacks only, some (I suspect the more salubrious ones) whites only. And we told you to stick that idea up your collective arses. And then American GIs would get involved in fights with blacks, and the Brits would often wade in - siding with the black guys.
Because this is about mutual trust and respect. Britain (mostly) had it even then, and now America's got the idea. Only bigoted twats like you are stuck in the past, and for some reason think that your bigotry is the fault of black people.
Nelson Mandela was a terrorist.
@ #1391389:
Well, this is the first I've heard about it. If that's true, then... SONOVABITCH! At least I thought that back in the forties America was no more racist than Britain but you had to disabuse me of that notion, didn't you? Why must Americans be behind on EVERYTHING?! Every single American GI was highly racist and COULD NOT ABIDE the mere notion of hanging out in the same bars as black people, while the saintly British were completely open-minded and non-prejudiced in the matter. This has sent me over the line... clearly there is NOTHING about US history or culture that can be redeemed. Even today you have people such as the OP demanding a return to the Jim Crow era, and they have the support of anybody who supported such hypocrites as Santorum the Papist, Gingrich the Adulterer, and Romney the Weak-Willed. Meanwhile, all of our freedoms are being steadfastly eroded by parasitic corporations who have every member of government in their pockets, thus allowing them to get away with every felony ever described by jurisprudence, up to and including HIGH TREASON against the United States and its people. And of course our cops are corrupt almost to a man, believing that they have carte blanche to murder any black person they see, consequences be damned, and stop at nothing to destroy democracy. I want NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS COUNTRY ANYMORE!
Oh, and anonymous poster? I totally blame you for this. ;-)
@ Brendan Rizzo
It is true that American GIs were surprised at the total lack of segregation in Britain, and there were moves to introduce segregation in areas that Americans were stationed.
However, I wouldn't be totally down on America. A great reason for this was that there simply weren't all that many black people in Britain at the time. Though there have been black people in Britain since Roman times, slaves never settled in Britain and displaced black people from the army who could have settled in Britain tended to go to the warmer colonies that were more like home.
Black populations tended to be centred in the industrial cities, the countryside areas where American bases were hosted were probably 99 or 100% white. Some probably still are.
It's only since the 50s when the Government imported cheap black labour from the Caribbean and African colonies to replace the war dead that really sizeable black populations sprang up.
Black people still only make up 2% of the population.
@ Atheissimo:
I'm more upset about the British siding with the blacks, thus proving, PROVING, beyond the merest shadow of a doubt, that the British are less racist than the Americans. And it wasn't just Britain which recognized how backward America was... around the same time there was a Swedish sociologist who wrote a book about American segregation called something like "An American Dilemma" so every democratic country in Europe had totally repudiated racism long before that happend on my side of the Atlantic. This is not at all helpful to my self-esteem. Pretty much every good thing about the US mentioned in history books is propaganda and I am only just now finding this out. I want America to adopt European attitudes towards religion and politics wholesale, as it has become clear that Western Europe and Canada are the only places in the entire world that have got it right. It is completely unacceptable in those places to wear one's religion on one's sleeve. In contrast, in the ironically-called "Land of the Free" it is almost impossible to become elected to high office UNLESS one expresses belief in evangelical, fundamentalist Christianity.
The truth is that Nelson Mandela is a leader who reined in the ANC from a campaign of total revenge for each crime commited by the apartheid democracy.
I highly doubt every GI in WWII was a racist. Were some of them racists? Undoubtably. Were the ones in charge racists? Some of them probably were. Were all of them racists? Facts are not in evidence.
Canada and European countries have done some pretty shitty things over the years that were motivated by racism. Some in the not-so-distant past.
D Laurier: "The truth is that Nelson Mandela is a leader who reined in the ANC from a campaign of total revenge for each crime commited by the apartheid democracy."
-
And the racists might say "So, the ANC really DID want to slaughter the Boer, only to be held back by Nelson Mandela?"
They'll find any excuse to demonize.
I'd just like to know, given the above, WHY, even in the most philosophically enlightened places of Earth, racism and tribalism are so difficult to utterly dispel. What is to be lost by treating the Other honorably and kindly? (No, glory is NOT a valid answer, being utterly worthless and incompatible with honor. Glory is just a form of puffing-up...)
skyknight's got my voice for his question too.
RE: OP: yeah, yeah, and he was black to boot! up yours, asswipe.
if this keeps up, i'm labelling my race as "pixel/virtual" instead of "human". no way am i staying in this world when VR is so inviting
@ Brendan Rizzo
Okay. Go find another country that, when you rip off the propaganda, isn't a hellhole, in your self-righteous opinion.
Tell me. I'd really like to see it.
Also-Trayvon Martin's death set off a national inquiry into the justice system. In the 1960s, it would have been ignored.
Think about it.
@ Leliel:
Well, Canada seems like an awesome place.
And if the Trayvon Martin case had happened anywhere else, nobody would have defended Zimmerman even for a moment.
@ Brendan Rizzo:
First: The legal defense of Zimmerman is actually due to a law which, while stupid, isn't related to racism at all.
Second: Ask yourself what would happen if Trayvvon was a Muslim / Arab in Europe.
Nelson Mandela was a terrorist and spent 60+ years in prison as a result. However, his resolutions in 1994 prevented a massive racial genocide that some on both sides are still calling for. I for one am glad that he reigned in the ANC who honestly though they were going to receive word and start indiscriminately killing whites.
A lot of the other members of the ANC both current and past however committed far worse terrorist crimes than the one that landed Mandela in prison, but such is life. Most notoriously is his ex wife who was involved in the brutal practice of "necklacing". The process involves placing a car tire around a persons neck, and then setting it alight. The rubber melts and sticks to the persons skin. It is a pretty horrific way to die.
Now everything in South Africa is not all peaches and roses. The ANC government is a little too much like our neighbors in Zimbabwe which is not a good sign. The current bunch leading the ANC are your typical tinpot dictators. They don't accept anyone disagreeing with them and are noticeably trying to erode the separation of powers between the legislature and the judiciary. They are becoming completely corrupted by power and I doubt they will relinquish their control democratically. However that is a problem for a later date.
Despite all that though, they are still not nearly as bad as the American republicans and government. The judiciary though slow, still protects the people of all colours. Blacks and whites try their best daily to live their lives despite the ever increasing oppression of the ruling party. Despite the racists on both sides, both of which make me ashamed and sick, we still want to live in harmony and peace. The majority of the blacks in South Africa received a raw deal. With their freedom in 1994 they were free to now excel or fail based on merit, however 30 years of institutionalized oppression eroded their economic ability. Most adults were hopelessly uneducated and a lack of schools in predominantly black areas severely stunted the potential of their children. While the field was leveled legally, the problem of poverty remained much like the rest of the world. This economically uneven field is a large part of the current oppression of the black population. Although access to education has improved these last 18 years, the incompetence and corruption of government has lead to education levels dropping to record lows, completely stunting the ability of poverty stricken blacks to uplift themselves. This lack of education throughout the workforce has led to a severe economic problems especially in attempting to compete globally. this all continually perpetuates the cycle of poverty.
As of the 17 of April 2012, they are attempting to introduce a bill that will punish journalists to 15 years in prison for leaking state information, even if the information is of public interest. Additionally they intend to create a media tribunal to punish the media for printing stories they don't like. They openly complain when anyone they don't like receives more media attention they they do on the national state broadcasters which tend to favor them disproportional when election time comes. An example is the afternoon long ANC rally that was televised live, while no other parties received any air time. They are also intending to change the constitution, one of the best in the world, to give themselves the power to continue to plunder the country indiscriminately. The locally know blue light brigades have already caused a number of deaths and injuries as the transport ANC people with reckless abandon. The police are entirely under their control and the officers that tried to arrest an ANC official were subsequently dismissed. Education levels have dropped to such a low that one of the few ANC people with backbone admitted that the apartheid era Bantu education was better. These are all the signs of the ANC becoming that they destroyed with Apartheid. They have just become another oppressive regime.
This continual cycle of poverty and economic oppression allows the ruling ANC to manipulate the population in their favor. Through blatant propaganda and lies they maintain a ghost of Apartheid and use it as a threat whenever election time comes round again. With the low levels of literacy most are uniformed about the reality of how the government is oppressing them because the newspapers are too difficult to read for many. Living conditions are so similar for many poor black families to the conditions under apartheid that many incorrect believe that whites and apartheid are still actively oppressing them. A belief that suits an obsolete revolutionary organization currently in power just fine.
There are racists on both sides. The make me sick, however the majority of people just want to live in peace and happiness.
Somehow, I don't think this is going to make Rizzo feel THAT much better...
Come to think of it, this sounds a lot like the tribalism that infects the rightward of America (the all-important tribe in this case being the ANC). Justice, prosperity, kindness, morality...not regarded as worthwhile if they don't focus entirely on the persistence and invulnerability of the tribe. To humanity's ancient tribalism, the enlightened concepts of equality, science, respect of the Other, etc. must seem like the ultimate heresy. The precepts have yet to realize that humanity is no longer unable to care for those beyond the tribe. The idea of omnibenevolence, ultimately, may just seem self-contradictory to those in tribalism's thrall.
Brendan Rizzo: You're doing well for a country that's only been around for less than 300 years. I don't think there's ever been a state that's become so prosperous within such a short space of time. Look at how well other young regimes are faring, like the entire Middle East, for example. Australia is doing alright, especially given their climate.
Anyway, despite the whole slavery and segregation business, Britain was a massive imperialist and did some nasty things but most of the time it was cultural snobbery or xenophobia rather than modern racism, though that did creep in later on. People didn't mind foreigners as long as they assimilated, it was an empire after all, and might even prefer an Indian or African to a Frenchman. (These days everyone is scared of Polish and Pakistani immigrants, but Indians and Chinese are well-accepted, the latter two having integrated into society a lot earlier, and Pakistani Muslims tending to scare people with the religion.) Whereas in the Americas there were migrants from all over Europe but not so much other places, so people weren't bothered about the cultural differences within Europe but were more bothered by obviously different foreigners like Africans, and it didn't help that they had to bring in a huge West African slave underclass when the Native and Irish indentured servants died off.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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