Bryan Fischer #fundie

Bryan Fischer #fundie afa.net

(These are just the worst bits, but the whole article is hilariously uninformed and extreme.)

I have contended for years that the First Amendment, as given by the Founders, provides religious liberty protections for Christianity only. Most attorney types, befuddled by years of untethered Supreme Court activism, think it covers any and all religions you can name...The First Amendment applies only to Congress, as its very first word makes plain. The states were allowed to regulate religious expression any way they chose. Since it’s never been amended, the First Amendment means today what it meant then, which means that if a state government wants to recognize Satanism or Islam, it can. If it doesn’t want to, it doesn’t have to.

39 comments

old comment by Nemo

Ignore what David Barton told you, Bryan. The real "Founding Fathers" included many deists who were hostile to Christianity. I'm glad that the fundies tend to avoid Jefferson, as his views are so well known that I need not post them. John Adams hosted a Muslim dinner at the White House, and in addition was a Unitarian, not some hardcore Bible thumper. Madison denied funding for state churches, and his original draft of the First Amendment made it clear that it was not just for Christians.

This is ignoring Ethan Allen and Thomas Paine, who are often counted among the Founders. In high school, I mentioned that Paine was critical of organized religion, but I never realized just how much the man hated Biblical Christianity until I read the Age of Reason.

I would love to put Bryan in an arena with someone who actually understands U.S. history and watch the results. I'd even volunteer to do it.

old comment by Ibuki Mioda

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Ibuki thinks that fundies try to use this argument waaaaaaaay too much. It's one thing to just say that the Constitution says whatever they want it so say, but when people ask for proof, they always pull the "Well, this is what it REALLY means" line. That argument doesn't work at all, mostly because there mountains of evidence showing that the Founding Fathers weren't hardcore fundamentalist Christians.

Honestly, Ibuki thinks that people like Bryan-chan are just gonna keep on clinging to that argument and throwing fits whenever someone points out the flaws in it. They're living in their own little bubble of revisionist history, and Ibuki thinks that's really sad.

old comment by David B.

Ah, but in only covering Christians, who exactly qualifies for those first amendment rights?

Baptists? Plenty of other Christians claim the Baptists are all wet.
Catholics? The Protestants would probably protest.
Unitarians? The rest would unite against it.

..and so on.

Who gets to decide which 'Christianities' are covered, and which aren't? Or are all groups calling themselves Christian covered, while the POTUS, SCOTUS and all the congressional Otis's butt the hell out?

Because as a Pastafarian Christian, I would have to say that I am sure my brother Hindu Christians, Muslim Christians, Buddhist Christians, Wiccan Christians and Zoroastrian Christians are as glad as I to continue to have our freedom to speak, and in so doing call ourselves whatever the hell we want, protected by the constitution.

In summary, a "Christian-only 1st Ammendment" must either mean the government or the courts deciding who is Christian enough to qualify, or result in a bar set so low that all anyone need do is append "-Christian" to whatever group or cause they want to protect.

A "Christian establishment clause" is nonsensical, either the government establishes what is Christian in order to enforce non-establishment, or the term Christian is diluted to the point of not being needed.

Game over.

old comment by TimeToTurn

There were many Jews in Colonial America, including one elected to a colonial legislature despite there nominally being laws against Jews voting or holding public office. Do they get rights too?

As for Muslims, there will several Muslims who fought on the American side in the American Revolution. Many imported African slaves were also Muslims, and we can find quotes like "Even if the Mufti of Constantinople were to send a missionary to preach Mohammedanism to us, he would find a pulpit at his service" from Ben Franklin. John Adams, George Washington, and many other Founding Fathers also had high opinions on Islam (as well as Hinduism). And the first nation to recognise the United States was the Sultanate of Morocco.

Wrong as ever, Bryan.

old comment by SpukiKitty

If the Founders meant "Christianity", they would have written it down.

But you see, Fischface....The Founders were of European descent & were familiar with how a society run by The Churches could be...and it wasn't pretty.

Being adherents to the philosophies of The Age Of Reason with many as members of Freemasonry, they understood that Religion & Government don't mix. When separated, both remain pure. Religion remains all about spirituality rather than corruption & power and Government can better deal with stuff here on terra firma.

Jesus of Nazareth recognized this. It was He who stated....
MATTHEW 20:21 (KJV)
21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
(I tend to quote King James due to the KJV-only crowds out there...I'm using their scriptures to make my point)

Also, when The Founders spoke of Godhead, they spoke of Zir as "Creator" or "Providence" for most of them were Deists, Unitarians & non-frummer nominal Christians. Deity was a nebulous, universalist concept, not a specific Middle-Eastern Deity.

I'm afraid that you and your ilk have the 18th Century statesmen in Philadelphia confused with the 17th Century Puritans & Pilgrims of Plymouth, Jamestown, etc.

Were you asleep in History/Social Studies class as a kid?

Considering your screed & antics, has not the Ninth Commandment of the Decalogue crossed your mind or are you willing to give your pants as a burnt offering to The Antichrist God Of Unlimited Power For Powers Sake?

Bryan Fischer #fundie afa.net

39 comments

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