Dads against daughters dating?
There's a new t-shirt, a couple of new books out on the subject and a movement that goes beyond the bookstores pushing the concept.
But say what you want, it is an idea whose time once was, and needs to be renewed. Dating is a lousy idea. Somewhere along the line in the early to middle twentieth century culture decided that young couples pairing off and discovering fuller (actually, far shallower) meanings and implications of sexuality was a good idea.
The concept of courtship is winning out in the minds of a growing number of evangelical parents. Here is the basic, if woefully brief, brief - let Dads in particular and parents in general be on the lookout for mates for their daughters. Pray long and hard. Trust in God. If a guy takes an interest in your gal, he works through Dad first, not Dad later. Courtship is done with the purpose of marriage in mind, so it is not done lightly. Precious little physical contact prior to marriage. First kiss ought to be at the wedding altar. Time alone with the opposite sex ought to be limited.
You get the gist. It works out differently for different families. But for all those wondering which planet these practitioners of courtship are from one would be hard-pressed to suggest that dating as a norm has worked out well Christians since we began participating in this now-cultural norm unthinkingly.
Only one problem with the T-shirt. Mine reads "Dads-Against-Sons-Dating, Too." I have five of those "sons."
83 comments
Yeah, and when they turn 18, you will never, ever see them again. So go ahead. Because if you act like crazed douchewagons, they'll wise up and get free. Although, knowing fundies, they'll just try to illegally hold their kids against their will.
Indeed, because nothing says 'lasting relationship' like being sold into marriage (or in the case of courtship, sexual slavery) by your father to a man you don't know and likely have nothing in common with.
I'm sure you wouldn't be married off to an abusive deviant alcoholic misogynist asshole simply because he shares the same faith as your father. It's okay. Courtship is ordained by god.
< / sarcasm >
How do you think you got here in the first place? I'm guessing that the chances of your arrival in this world being the result of an arranged marriage are pretty slim.
@Einar
Consider me officially creeped out for the day.
"Somewhere along the line in the early to middle twentieth century culture decided that young couples pairing off and discovering fuller (actually, far shallower) meanings and implications of sexuality was a good idea."
"Precious little physical contact prior to marriage. First kiss ought to be at the wedding altar."
So the way to avoid shallow exploration of sexuality is... not to have any sexuality whatsoever. Well, technically that works, I suppose. In the same sense that you can avoid having a low-paying job by being unemployed.
" If a guy takes an interest in your gal, he works through Dad first, not Dad later."
Because dad owns the daughter.
You really want to push the divorce rate even higher, don't you?
@Mister Spak
That's not far from the truth. The one time I ever watched "19 Kids and Counting" was a brief snippet of the show where the oldest son got married. The bride's father said to the camera that a woman lives under the authority of her father until she's married, when she then lives under the authority of her husband.
Einar: This creeped me out to the core of my being.
I remember hearing about this years ago and being utterly appalled. It sends a clear message that a woman's worth lies solely with her status as a virgin. The other thing that bothered me about it is that there is no emphasis on sons whatsoever to maintain this same standard of 'purity'. As mind-bendingly creepy as it would be, a mother/son purity ball would at least show some kind of consistency. But no, they're going the same route they have for the last 2000+ years: no matter what happens, it's always the girl's/woman's responsibility to avoid sex. Men/boys are never responsible for their own sexual behavior.
But not looking out for mates for their sons, right? Because men are smart and responsible and can figure out what they want, while women are just frail-minded little porcelain dolls! *eyeroll* And, hell, at least some arranged-marriage traditions allow the mother to have a say in who the daughter marries, but this guy just wants women to have zero power whatsoever.
Um, at least he mentions that he's against sons dating too, so it almost sort of sounds equal? It's sad when that's the most positive thing that can be pointed out about this statement.
Oookay. How is getting to truly know someone before you consider marrying them shallow, exactly? Why do people think it's a good idea to have little physical contact with someone and not live with them and get very accustomed before committing to marriage? See, this is the thing sane people would ask. People can develop relationships without dating-dating. And also without having parents arrange a marriage for their offspring like it was the 1600s.
My parents are hardly fundie, but they are doofuses, so I can only imagine the gems they'd handpick for me.
image
Oh, that's cute, it has a gun on it.
"Courtship is done with the purpose of marriage in mind, so it is not done lightly."
OK, that sounds fair if both parties are aiming for a marriage. But then you say "Precious little physical contact prior to marriage. First kiss ought to be at the wedding altar. Time alone with the opposite sex ought to be limited."
Doesn't that contradict what you just said before? That sounds like a good way to dump your offspring into a pointless unhappy marriage. I agree that dating is not a very good way to find a partner, but your alternative is ten times worse.
The best way to find a partner is to be in a large social circle and working with others in a group. I take part in drama and am a member of two drama groups, which share many members. While working together, it's easier to find someone on your own personal wavelength. That's just my idea. It's worked for a few people I know.
Back in the day noble/wealthy parents arranged marriages to make strategic alliances. (Nobody cared what peasants did as long as they grew food and made more peasants, so their arrangements are mostly lost to history.) Modern practitioners of arranged marriages still pick matches based on inter-family ties and caste or social standing ... or on who they hope will marry their workaholic sons / mamas'-boys.
These modern "courtship" proponents, on the other hand, seem to care only about their daughters' complete ignorance of sex and their own obsessive and unrelenting control over every member of their nuclear family. They've tightened the rules to nightmarish degrees and lost all semblance of meaning. I suspect that's the recurring motif of their lives.
So, now that gay marriage has been legalised in some states, why don't you divorce your wife and marry those guys, if they're so wonderful?. Or better, why don't you stay with them for the rest of your life, you know, with all their problems and defects?. You got the message.
Just like the Muslims do. For people who fear Islam so much they certainly agree with a lot of it's practices.
I would also say that once guys find out what ridiculous hoops they have to jump through just to ask your daughter out I'm pretty sure the offers of dates will soon dry up and your "virgin" daughter will be pretty cheesed off.
One more thing. Does this count if your daughter is a lesbian and another girl wants to date her? Hmmm.
Yeah, because you're the best person to pick the man your daughter will love. Either that's your position or you simply don't care about her being in love with her husband. One way or the other, you're an idiot, an a$$hole, and a self-important control freak.
I really don't have anything against arranged marriages if the two that are suppossed to be arranged together both consent, so if somebody's daughters agree with that or with their dads choosing their future husbands for them, have at it all you like. I just know I'm not going to court any of those women.
The whole thing sort of falls apart when they go to college doesn't it? Or are you of the "they don't need any of that there liberal book learning" crowd?
Oh, that was a real stupid question wasn't it?
@ dionysus
No word of a lie, I actually know a fundy who believes in alchemy. Fair enough he's into all that new age, crystal waving, magic water drinking, woo as well. But still - alchemy!
"You shouldn't buy shoes without knowing how they feel first."
-My dad on sex and dating.
At times like this I am so glad my dad escaped the right wing religious mentality...
"Work through dad first"
ohhh reaaalllllyyyyy
Somewhere along the line in the early to middle twentieth century culture decided that young couples pairing off and discovering fuller (actually, far shallower) meanings and implications of sexuality was a good idea.
Dating, albeit with a chaperone, has been going for longer than the United States of America. Fundies were once socially conservative. These days, they are reactionary to the extent that one wonders why Liberty University Medical School isn't basing its teaching on the humors and the use of hyssop in the Bible.
The concept of courtship is winning out in the minds of a growing number of evangelical parents.
Dating is a form of courtship.
not ashamed of being a virgin:
Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of her intelligence and depth of character. Those are the things I wanted to cultivate in my own children.
How can anyone expect a relationship to flourish if two people can't even be in the same room together without pissing dear old dad off first?
Things like this makes me think fundieism has gone past ridiculous and straight into ludacrous.
@Moondog
Not sure if anyone answered you yet, but no, it's not India. The tags on the page include "christian reconstructionism" which I kind of think is an oxymoron since they really should be rigidly adhering to their obsolete holy texts, hence needing no "reconstruction."
"If a guy takes an interest in your gal, he works through Dad first, not Dad later."
- The problem with that plan is that you seem painfully easy to manipulate. Your decision in this case seems to be entirely self-centered and devoid of reason. I expect that any young man who attends a church and flatters you sufficiently can have all the access to your daughter he wants.
The real tragedy though is that your efforts to keep your daughter "pure" are almost certainly inhibiting her social maturity. Having been raised to think that her opinions do not matter, she will assume that any boy you approve of is "good." So, once he's conned you (an easy feat, as I suggested earlier), he can basically have his way in the relationship.
I know this might shock you, but some situations are too complex to be fully settled with a t-shirt and a slogan.
You know what? Your daughter won't be nearly as icked out over her sex life as you are. Your daughter will grow up wanting to have sex. Deal with it. After all, you've fucked someone's daughter before, too.
So was your marriage arranged then, asshole? Was your parents? Did you not so much as touch your wife before getting married? Did you realize your wife and your mother and even your GRANDMOTHER were once someone's *gasp* daughter who had sex?
I'm willing to bet one thing, in your version of the would certainly be a much higher percentage of divorces, provided the patriarchy allowed them to be legal.
@ KittyKaboom:
Sadly, people like "not ashamed of being a virgin" (and these Dads Against Daughters Dating folk) are incapable of understanding that a woman's crotch is not the most valuable part of her. A woman's value, according to them, can only be judged by how they do or do not use their crotch.
So I doubt placing value on a woman's intelligence is going to win her(him?) over.
The really creepy thing about guys like this is that they don't appear to realize that their daughters are actual people with their own opinions, and that they may not like whatever shmuck their overbearing father handpicks for them to marry. But father won't listen, because he thinks that his daughter is just a piece of property to be transferred, rather than a human being.
Or maybe he does know that she is sentient, and is purposely suppressing her free will anyway, which is even creepier .
"Only one problem with the T-shirt. Mine reads "Dads-Against-Sons-Dating, Too." I have five of those "sons."
Translation: "My boys oughta be allowed to date 'cuz they're MEN, not silly girls who need a good MAN to dictate their every move."
Am I right?
@ Einar, @ KittyKaboom -
Ew. Ewewewew! Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeew!
I think if I found out one of my son's friends had to go through that kind of crap, I'd be callin' Child Welfare Services.
I feel dirty now. (EW!!)
" not ashamed of being a virgin
@KittyKaboom:
As opposed to her worth being entirely how sexy she is?"
I'm not surprised you're still a virgin if you think the only merit a woman can possibly have is tied to her body.
So basically you want the boys to charm you instead of your daughter, Matty? And yet I suspect you're vehemently opposed to marriage equality...
@LDM:
And your daughters will become experts at sneaking out at night to meet their real boyfriends.
Yeah, the quote reminds me of a few scenes in Wadjda , a (very good) movie I recently watched about the condition of women in Saudi Arabia through the lens of a little girl who wants a bike to beat the neighbour's son in a race: I suspect that Matt would love it if there was a religious police hunting girls who have the audacity of finding themselves with non-relative males where he lives...
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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