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f an underage girl pursued an older male and she initiated sex with him and they both consented, enjoyed it, and she was not traumatized by the experience, then is it still wrong, is anyone really hurt, or is there even a victim at all? The same for an underage male pursuing an older female?

On topic, no there's no damage caused. There's no victim. We just have religious/puritan roots and tolerate sexual interactions to only the most necessary degree.

Can't consent according to the law of most civilized countries.
The difference is that 2 16 year olds have a pretty similar power balance, whereas a 16 and a 21 year old have a completely different one.

Power imbalance is inherent to the vast majority of relationships and is actually a good thing in most cases. It increases the risk of abuse, but it also increases the reward for the weaker party as they are able to obtain extensive resources and knowledge through their power imbalance relationship.

When you consider things like attraction, though, power imbalances generally disappear.

the law dictates that kids are complete absolute 100% dumb fucks.
Kids are deemed so stupidly retarded they cant even answer a simple question 'yes or no' regarding sex

Oh but they can. They can consent to sexual activities with other people their age who are, apparently, just as clueless as they are. An then people wonder why teenage pregnancy and STDs are so prevalent.

If anything, age differences in relationships are safety nets.

Besides if any adult decides to mess with my Daughters, regardless of who initiated the contact, they better invest in some soap on a rope. I'll make damn sure that fucker ends up behind bars.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but the parallels with fathers who would say the same thing about a black man 'messing with their daughters' not too long ago are pretty overt.

ut the man opens himself up to a world of hurt should the girl regret her decision, and the law is in place to just give a clear-cut line where it's not any use in saying "but he/she wanted it too!" for the adult. It's to stop adults from taking advantage of young people.

I never understood this argument. When I was younger, I was in a relationship with someone 7 years older than me, for 2 years. I had basically all of the power in that relationship, for a few reasons: one, I could leave whenever I wanted to, and as the object of desire my basis for remaining in the relationship did not involve attraction, but rather behaviors and stability. Two, our culture hates it when older people are in relationships with younger people for some shitty reason, so if anything went wrong I would have the full support of everyone around me. In short, I couldn't be in the wrong, and that gave me a significant amount of power.

If anything, it's the younger person that's taking advantage of the older one. The older one gets some eye candy and maybe fulfills their desire to provide and protect, while resources and knowledge are transferred to the younger one.

The damage people experience as a result of such relationships is largely an outcome of societal condemnation. If you remove a minor's agency and condemn their behaviors - even if they are not responsible for it - you will damage how they view themselves and relationships. That's right - WE are responsible more than the 'perpetrator' of the act for the damage caused by these relationships (in most cases, not all). The only reason I have a solid mental state and positive image of myself and relationships after coming out of that relationship is that I don't give a single fuck about what other people think. I used to, but not anymore after I realized how destructive other people can be just with their opinions, and especially to an underdeveloped mind as my own was when I had to think about these kinds of things at 15.

I want to reduce damage. I also want people to be able to acquire resources and stability if they so choose. Living in a society that condemns relationships with large age differentials and illegalizes them in some cases does neither.

I was in a sexual mentoring relationship with someone significantly older then me. It worked well for me, gave me an edge over my peers, and is party responsible for my success. I'm still good friends with the guy, and though I am not interested in a sexual relationship with him any more he still provides me with guidance. I would not have been able to obtain all of the knowledge and resources I did without the relationship being sexual; it wouldn't have been worth it for him, and I didn't mind/enjoyed it after a few times.

It is. But you can't treat people in a way that is criminal, regardless of how they act. Therein lies the the fault with victim blaming. I know you said devil's advocate but this ought to be intuitively obvious? You can perhaps rightfully call a child a slut (but you won't be a nice person for doing so), but that's about as far as you can go. You can't rape her and then justify it as "well she acted like a slut so I treated her like one".
It's illegal to rape women for being promiscuous.

There in lies the problem with modern society. Because girls who act and dress promiscuously, sometimes also engage in sexual activity with older men. It's also illegal to have consensual sex, and the responsibility is thrown entirely on the adult. Controlling sexual urges during a consensual encounter is a lot harder than people think. It's not only in our genes, but also embedded in our society. There is a reason why so many people cheat when they are in a relationship. But there is a fundamental difference between wanting that ultimate please with someone and willing to break the law/relationship over it and going as far as knowingly hurting them for it.

Sometimes the adult may not know the true age, sometimes the adult will give in to temptation. But the thought process going through a man's brain is entirely different from a "I'm going to rape her" situation. Yet the punishment and branding stays the same, especially in cases involving minors.

200 years ago it wasn't uncommon to get with someone younger than 18. In fact, nature itself makes girls ready in the 10-13 age. Now I do agree, that in this day in age, getting pregnant or even engaging in sexual activity before 17-18 can be damaging, because so much of our future rides on our ability to focus on learning during our teen years and our ability to grow up with a healthy mental state. But we are fighting against our nature in doing this, and the fact that society has deemed it ok to punish those who break this rule but at the same time deemed it ok to leave all the temptation in there is wrong. It's similar to bringing alcohol to an AA meeting. In either case you have to be very strong willed to go against your natural instincts when being tempted, and some people just aren't.

No, girls that young giving birth are risking a whole host of medical issues. Nature makes girls capable by 13, it does not make them ready.

I'd have to research this more to find any kind of correlation between a healthy 14 y/o and a healthy 18 y/o as far as risks to giving birth. Again though you are right here and what I meant by ready was capable. But it would be wrong to state that all girls under 18 are unfit to become parents, or are at larger risk than if they were 18+. Those girls whose bodies develop and mature faster are also those who seem to favor promiscuous clothing as well, and as also more like to want to consensually engage in sexual activity. Therefore it also seems plausible that men's natural attraction to females happen when they think that female is ready to give birth regardless of age.

Honestly, I don't really see this happen all that often. Most cases of pedophiles (in the news at least) seem to be of either people who abused positions of trust (might as well be forcible rape) or predators who groomed little girls for sex (pretty much is forcible rape). But I acknowledge that could well just be my perspective. My position though, is that there's no reason why you can't wait a couple of years with an underage partner. Err on the side of caution when it comes to people who are potentially not ready.

I agree here, but I do occasionally read about a case of statutory rape that just doesn't seem to make sense. There is also a huge difference in being attracted to someone underaged that looks, talks, acts, dresses like an adult and an attraction to the looks, talks, and acts of someone who is clearly still a kid.

Edit: this is why I think society is partly to blame. We should keep children as children, so that people are less likely to be attracted to them even if they somewhat look old enough. Nothing more offputting to me than a girl who acts like a child with her mannerisms, despite how old she is.

Well the law does have to make up some number, but it's sad to see people automatically branded as pedophiles and rapist (not the legal definition, but that of purely forceful sex) when the parties involved can be one of the numerous cases when the sexual act in question is not damaging to either party. Especially when both parties are wired perfectly normal and subject to society's teens' provocative displays and their own sexual impulses.

I take issue with trying to blame it on provocative displays. Really, human adults in general aren't such hopeless creatures who can't control their base desires.

Don't agree with this at all. Just look at how many people commit crimes of passion, and how many people are addicted to drugs, alcohol, or smoking. Look at how many people eat without control, or spend way too much time on entertainment to their own detriment. Human adults in general have a very hard time struggling with control, specially when having that control isn't specifically rewarded in any way.

I don't think any of the other little vices that you mentioned compares to sexually assaulting a minor.

Oh they don't! I was referring to being able to say no to sex with a minor who looks,acts, talks, and dresses like an adult who is the one wanting to initiate the sexual act in the first place.
Sexual activity in men in my opinion is almost equivalent to a drug. It is why the porn industry is so damn huge. Sex is not one of those things men can just shrug off and be 100% in control about, because on some level sex is a primal instinct embedded in all of us. Look at how hard it is to become a celibate priest or monk, and they already remove themselves from situations where they can give in.