@DLaurier #47289 and @everyone who starred his comment
I am a Croat. I studied modern history and have a Master’s degree from one of our universities. I am and have always been a staunch anti-nationalist, whether that means opposing Croatian, Serbian or any other local brand of ethnic bigotry.
I think that what happened to many Bosniaks in the 90s war was terrible, and that the Srebrenica massacre was a case of genocide.
I’m also telling you that with the exception of part of what he said about the “Muslim SS unit” — and there were actually two SS divisions that were formed, the 13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar (1st Croatian) and the 23rd Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Kama (2nd Croatian) — just about everything else isn’t even wrong.
It’s dead wrong, complete bull, utter hogwash, not even revisionism, but a confusing mess of complete fabrication that I can’t even begin to guess where DLaurier got it from.
It goes to show that while DLaurier seems to show a great deal of general historical knowledge on many subjects, including obscure details that look interesting and suggest an impressive erudition, you should always double-check it with some reputable sources if you don’t know anything about the subject. Just because it sounds right and has a nice anti-colonialist aura to it doesn’t mean it isn’t a noxious rectal product from beginning to gooey end.
So, on to the concrete claims this clueless & careless repeater of nationalist tripe has made.
The Bosnians had twice been hit with genocide at the hands of the Serbs, in the 1920s, and again in the 1930s. They flocked to the only banner that offered them protection. Alas that banner was Schicklegruber’s Nazis.
As a person who despises genocide denial and minimization, I have to say… what the hell are you on about?
What genocides against Bosniaks in the 1920s and 30s?*
This. Never. Happened. And you’re welcome to prove otherwise, if you can. Which I very much doubt.
(Note: the proper term is Bosniaks. It matters, because the term Bosnians with an ’n’ refers to any native of Bosnia, regardless of ethnicity. I bet you didn’t know that though, DLaurier, given your propensity for rather superficial historical research.)
Look, I have no problem whatsoever admitting that the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes — known after 1929 as the Kingdom of Yugoslavia — was far from a wholesome country with a sterling human rights record. It was an authoritarian quasi-democratic barely functional mess ruled by a king who would eventually end up declaring himself a dictator. It was a country where not every ethnicity was recognized (including the Bosniaks), and even those who were… weren’t all truly equal.
Officially, the Bosniaks at that time were considered either Serbs (preferably) or Croats of Muslim faith, depending on which they chose to identify as. They had political parties, most notably the Yugoslav Muslim Organization (Jugoslavenska muslimanska organizacija, JMO), who tried to improve their status within the Kingdom. They never quite got far when it comes to official recognition of themselves as a separate ethnic group, but they did have some other successes in fighting off the Serb hegemony which every other ethnicity also faced.
But while the Bosniaks faced their battles with some forms of oppression, one thing that they very definitely didn’t face before WW2 was genocide. Nobody did, including the mostly Muslim Albanians in Kosovo, who arguably were the most discriminated minority in interwar Yugoslavia.
Seriously, where did you even find these claims?! From some obscure Bosniak ultranationalists?
Your claim that the Bosniaks ‘flocked to the Nazi banner that protected them’ makes some sense only in the context of World War 2, but that’s not what you claimed.
Nobody else even offered to take their women and children. The Bosnians saw no other choice. They could be slaughtered by Serbs, or they could serve their new German masters. They chose to live.
The Germans saw a useful marriage of convenience, to be ended when it was no longer useful.
The Serbs saw their victims raised over them, to take revenge for the murder of 3 million Bosnian civilians over the two previous decades.
The Bosnians saw a strong master who would protect them from the barbarity of the Serbs.
THE HELL are you talking about?!
This is as much of a confusing mess as it is a disgusting lie, which is… very.
700,000 Bosniaks were present in the Kingdom in 1918. That includes the Bosniaks in Sandžak and other regions outside of Bosnia and Herzegovina, by the way. So tell me, o DLaurier: since three million Bosniaks were apparently killed during the following two decades, how much is 700,000 — 3,000,000 ??
Go on, answer me, I’ll wait. Even though with your apparent intellectual skills, it might take a while.
But I’m not done. Oh no.
Tell me, DLaurier, do you know how some Serbs — the Chetniks, to be precise — ‘justified’ their actual slaughters of Bosniak (and Croat) civilians in World War 2?
Have you ever heard of the Ustashe? Have you heard of Jasenovac and other death camps they ran? Have you ever heard of Ustashe ‘pacification’ efforts in the countryside of their so-called Independent State of Croatia (Nezavisna država Hrvatska, NDH), which were extremely bloody and targeted Serb civilians who literally did nothing wrong?
Do you even know that the Ustashe considered the Bosniaks to be Croat, and that they did their best to woo them to their side? Do you know that some Bosniaks did join the Ustashe, and some of those Bosniaks participated in Ustashe atrocities against Serbs?
Do you know that the Yugoslav Partisans existed, you know, the people who won WW2 in Yugoslavia, defeating both the Ustashe and the Chetniks and driving the Nazis out of the country? Do you know that the Partisans’ key appeal among the populace of occupied Yugoslavia was their ethnic tolerance, and that they eventually had members of pretty much all the Yugoslav ethnic groups among them? Do you know, DLaurier… that the first major demographic group to join the Partisans in large numbers back in 1941 were the Croatian and Bosnian Serbs who were being slaughtered by the Ustashe?
Do you know that the Serb and Montenegrin Chetniks, the armed militants that actually did kill a lot of Bosniaks (though far fewer than you allege), in fact collaborated with the Italians and eventually with the Ustashe and Germans as well?
Do you know that it was the Partisans, a rather large part of whom — I repeat — were ethnic Serbs, who were the ones who ultimately put a stop to that?
But I will give you one point. Some Bosniaks did indeed see the German occupiers as potential protectors whom they could appeal to, and if they served them, hopefully receive their protection. Not that all that much came out of those efforts, as it turned out.
But the people who were the “rising victims” more than any others… the ones who had suffered a recent massive wave of murderous crimes that were committed against them and which they might want to avenge… those people were the Serbs. And the Jews and Roma, or course.
The one and only “Muslim” SS unit, was stationed in Italy and France. Bosnian muslims, Bosnian christians, and yes, Bosnian jews.
I never quite understood your fascination with ‘Palestinian jews’, but this really takes the cake. Thinking that Bosnian Jews could ever get close to joining the SS, let alone want to do so, is an idea that I’m genuinely at a loss how to answer. This is just… special.
By the way, can I have a citation for that claim, hmmmm?
Oh, also, cute how you fail to mention that when recruitment efforts among Bosnian Muslims later failed, the Nazis actually filled the two SS divisions’ ranks with… wait for it… ethnic Germans.
By the way, since I fear you’re so ignorant that this might need to be said, Bosnian Christians come in two ethnic flavors: Serbs (Orthodox) and Croats (Catholic).
After the war, the whole unit was shipped back to Yugoslavia and killed. As were all their families. And another two million Bosnians on top of that. The slaughter only ended when Stalin ordered Tito to stop.
So now we’re at, what, a negative 4 million Bosniaks living in post-war Yugoslavia? Awesome math there, DLaurier!
Tito and the Partisans didn’t kill even close to 2 million people after the war, let alone Bosnians, much less so Bosniaks.
Stalin didn’t order Tito to stop any sort of slaughter. That is also a lie.
In fact, DLaurier, this whole post of yours is a blatant blood libel, and I use that term knowing full well the gravity of it.
You are a filthy liar and a willful ignoramus, and you’re the equal of Holocaust denialists. In this post of yours, whether it was your intention or not, you have literally engaged in genocide denial, historical fabrication and fascist apologia. Go choke on a cactus.
Thereafter the Bosnian population of Yugoslavia were 2nd class citizens.
Wrong. Blatant lie.
Barred from education, healthcare, and political power.
Wrong. Blatant Lie.
Also, I raise you one Džemal Bijedić, a Bosniak prime minister of Yugoslavia from 1971 to 1977. And one Hamdija Pozderac, a member of the collective Presidency of Yugoslavia, as well as Raif Dizdarević, who was an actual President of the Presidency of Yugoslavia (that is, the federal president). Do I need to go on?
Oh, oh! Also, what was one of the FIRST things the Yugoslav communists did? That’s right, they recognized the Bosniaks as one of the constituent and distinct nations of Yugoslavia! So vile, much genocide!
They were menial labourers for the next 40 years.
Yep, some were, just like the people of every other ethnic group in Yugoslavia. Regular paid labourers, I mean — not some sort of slaves.
They were even paid less than other workers. They were slaves in all but name.
Wrong. Blatant lies. Provide sources, you fucking hack. You’re literally a worse liar than asswipes like David Irving.
The Serbs took a great delight in abusing them.
Citation needed, motherfucker.
Congratulations, DLaurier. You really outdid yourself this time.
This is one of the worst steaming piles of bald-faced lies and disingenous assertions I have ever had the displeasure of reading on this site and beyond it.
I’m done with tolerating your ass on this site. You know, it might surprise you, but I was once talked down from supporting your ban for advocating ethnic cleansing (which you very much did).
You will be requested to respond, and I eagerly await any feces your corroded mind might come up with.
Then again, it’s also quite like you to just plain ignore anything that contradicts your fantasies.
Thus, citing this example of blood libel, genocide denial and blatant historical revisionism which is at best a case of willful criminal ignorance and at worst a malicious lie, I will now once again recommend your ejection from this site.
In all of your 11+ years on this site, you have never changed for the better when challenged, never once shown that you are capable of the slightest amendments to completely and offensively wrong claims you’ve made.
I’m calling for your permaban, and this time I’m not so sure you’ll be so lucky as to have somebody stick up for your sorry ass.
Sooner or later, when you finally get that long-overdue boot in your ass, I will have a little dance on your proverbial grave and wish you a good riddance, you disgusting slimewad. Fuck off and die.