www.religionethics.co.uk

SweetPea #fundie religionethics.co.uk

Brownie, I don't know how you've got away with mentioning the NWO, a couple of hours ago, without someone stepping in and calling you a conspiracy theorist. It's quite funny.

Yes, there are many secret societies around the world, but the thing is they are all working together and have been for almost 500 years, but they are not interested in the welfare of the common man.

I'd recommend 'Pawns in the Game' (which we all are) by William Guy Carr. Written in the 50s, Carr gives a very detailed history on the foundations of the NWO going back to the English and French Revolution. He shows how the banksters/bankensteins, through the House of Rothschild, gained their wealth and grew in power with an aim to ultimately control all governments. 

Sassy #fundie religionethics.co.uk

The first of three should surely be 'Gods Truth'.

What you wrote Nick, suggests that there is only one type of truth that truth is anything pertaining to ourselves.

Gods truth comes from without and is independent of us all.

Whilst it changes the individual it is still a choice between his truth and whatever we accept as truth.

Sassy #conspiracy religionethics.co.uk

Personnel, who were concealed withing buildings and whom would not know if something filtered in to the studio.
So it isn't impossible. The Astronauts who trained for the first moon landing who were not selected all died in mysterious circumstances. One or two may have accidents but not the whole of those who trained except those who went to the moon.

When this had happened previously to the moon landing mission:-

https://aplanetruth.info/2015/03/31/24-why-did-so-many-apollo-astronots-die-mysterious-deaths-in-just-three-years-time/

Who would have thought it safe to speak out? So all this exposed in 4 years business is not good enough.
Apparently those who could really have exposed it, were murdered it would appear before they could tell anyone.
Given all those deaths and the fact one astronaut said just before he death..."

Then Challenger explodes after take off with a teacher on board who won the chance to go into space.
January 1986.
It is weird how people died mysterious deaths but was a good chance to stop members of the public going up.

WRONG: the arguments have not been dismantled. The examination of the moon rocks would have shown whether from earth now or a different planet but they disappeared suddenly. Even the Russians themselves do not really believe they made it to the moon. The experts who deny it happened are physicists and experts in their particular fields. Plus the Russian Scientist.
Within four years people were already denying the landing on the moon. It did come out.

Oh, so you think that I, Sassy am somehow by 'say so' a force against the landing on the moon. Such a childish and even worrying thought from you.
My belief is based on a few things including Scientist (those with the know how) you and I do not have.
There are other reasons and you have to work them out for yourself.
If man travels for 6 weeks away from the earth what would he really be able to see from that distant?
This was a time when we could not sent images any other way than by camera.

Sassy #fundie religionethics.co.uk

You defy logic everyday with your astounding ignorance in the face of creation itself.
You have no logical reason in the face of science for why you or here exists.

The truth is there is no reason or logic for a person not to believe in God/creator.
Hence your post shows you deceive yourself and have no real educated reason for making such a statement.

I guess I am on the winning side when it comes to logic and what we have around us...

~TW~ #fundie religionethics.co.uk

Yes the way I see it in a few years time this country will have an all Muslim Government so all under Sharia law you atheist will suffer badly hands chopped off and so on probably murdered and then hell the Christian Gods hell so give it time remember you were warned.
~TW~

Sassy #fundie religionethics.co.uk

God made the way for surgery known and possible. In Genesis 2 :21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
God performed the first surgery and gave the idea man could be put to sleep and not feel the pain.
As he created doctors and gave the first idea for healing medicines through the bible. He gets my vote.
Opps forgot he created mans body and the men who operate.

God created a heart that could massaged. Mouth to mouth resusitation came from the bible too.

It was these verses that made the person who thought of mouth to mouth resusitation think of the possibility.

34 And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm.

35 Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.
What you compare murder to saving life?

Grow up and don't make yourself look so stupid.

Sriram #fundie religionethics.co.uk


I agree with you Hope.   

This is the oft repeated atheist view that religion and poverty are closely connected (directly proportional) .  And also that education and religion are   closely connected (inversely proportional).

This is just a way by which atheists choose to feel superior about themselves...(whenever they get overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of the religious).   

I would even say that the more educated and intelligent people are ......'spirituality' and the inner quest become inevitable. Truly intelligent people with a broader vision of life cannot be satisfied with the narrow 'reality' that science shows them.

Sassy #fundie religionethics.co.uk

PROVE GOD DOES NOT EXIST... BY PROVING WHY WE EXIST IN THIS VOID AND LIFELESS PLACE CALLED SPACE.
NO SCIENCE HAS EVER PROVEN THAT.
There is NO SUCH THING AS AN ARGUMENT FROM IGNORANCE is is manmade and created. However God exists even in tribes which have been undiscovered till recent times. It creates the proof above all that man has always know there was a God because he was there at the beginning and ever race has known that however isolated and undiscovered by the rest of the world they have been until now.


Now stop this stupid illogical reasoning and show us evidence... The only acceptable evidence from you is to PROVE GOD DOES NOT EXIST... God has shown you through Christ what to do to find him. If you don't do it then you have to admit you are wrong till you do and closed minded. Because others who have done what he says have found him.

Sassy #fundie religionethics.co.uk

In the case of Mankind and God. what is the ANYTHING which MIGHT BE TRUE.
IT would have to include God made us. Because we did not make ourselves as the need for a man and a woman to procreate shows.
We are not making up the answer... The tower of Babel shows how God scattered the people all over the world giving them different tongues so they could not understand each other, each to their own Country. However in every Country and even the remotest tribes found living isolated from the rest of mankind all know and believe in A God who created the world and man.

Sometimes the evidence itself, is the most astounding clues we have. That all places know of a God who created us.
Even a flood is universally accepted in the world as we know it amongst those people.
So the evidence would suggest that God was there at the beginning and that all mankind in every nation knew it.

Sassy #fundie religionethics.co.uk

Can we stop with all the stupid excuses and manmade arguments they really only show atheists clutching at straws.
Straw men arguments which show they have no real logical reasoning for their disbelief given the world around them.

If anyone is lacking in support and evidence then it is the atheists point of view.

So stupid to believe they can argue God does not exist in the light of they themselves exist in an otherwise empty void called space.

Seems they are willing to cling to any argument really fooling themselves that they actually have something to argue with.
If you do as God and Christ tells you, you will know if exists. Until you do you are not in a position to argue or call yourselves open minded... Because those who seek truth act on information provided. Till every atheist has acted on the words of God and Christ then they are no truth seekers and are not being honest when it comes to wanting to know if there is a God.

So when you have done as God tells you, let us know. TILL YOU DO, YOU CANNOT ARGUE AGAINST HIS EXISTENCE.

~TW~ #fundie religionethics.co.uk

Thanks for giving me a choice which is to fit in with your thoughts which I reject due to a lack of evolution in the known universe, and to the evidence of prophecy coming true today,I would point out it is my belief and understanding that the points I see in scripture you do not see.Plus the witness of creation for me confirms it.

Sassy #fundie religionethics.co.uk

All that huff and puff nonsense and it all adds up to you having no proof.
IT IS TRUE.. You cannot base your disbelief on any actual evidence.
As I said it is your pride... you cannot risk being wrong can you? But you cannot prove yourself right.
Christianity and knowing God and Christ is a personal relationship which requires no validation outside the people in the relationship.

Sooner you realise that the believer under no obligation to prove anything because we all know if you truly were interested in the truth and knowing God you would take a step back and actually follow the WAY Christ taught. The disciples did not hang around those who refused to believe in Christ. Once the number there were added to believers they moved on to the next place.

You do realise that you are not going to convince anyone you made an informed decision, don't you.
All that waffle and it meant absolutely nothing...

~ TW ~ #fundie religionethics.co.uk

You really are a plonker, science which seems to be your god the bits you choose tells us that this place the world will end some say it is going to be a little warm.
Now the God of the bible says hell will be warm and it is a place for you,not created for you,but rather for disobedient angels,nevertheless convenient for you.

That is the message,now you have told us more times then we can remember this is just plain daft.So we have the clock ticking each day you get closer to a never ending nothing or a meeting with the person you call a liar,killer fiend,so all you have to do is wait give it time and pray that God does not exist,pray also that nothing went bang

Alan Burns #fundie religionethics.co.uk

It does not frighten me.
I just find it impossible to bring myself to believe that I was brought into existence by unguided natural forces. It is a logical impossibility with a probability of absolute zero.

The forces driving the evolutionary process may appear to be unguided, but there is evidence in our own brains that conscious will can interact with natural elements to bring about human creativity. The Bible tells us that we are made in God's image, which indicates the source of our creative ability.

newnature #fundie religionethics.co.uk

In the constellation Coma (desired or the longed for), the Star of Bethlehem appeared. There was a traditional prophecy, well-known in the East, carefully preserved and handed down, that a new star would appear in this sign when he whom it foretold should be born. New stars have appeared again and again, but in 125 BC that a star, so bright as to be seen in the day-time, suddenly appeared. The second Adam (the promise seed of the woman Gen.3:25) was born, born is September.

newnature #fundie religionethics.co.uk

Let's say the universe is that old, but the earth is older than that. The cave people during the fifth ‘a day’ in Genesis, that fifth ‘a day’ took around four and half billion years. Look at the cave people, God did not create them in his image. Being created in the image of God means that we must view ourselves as intrinsically valuable and richly invested with meaning, potentially and responsibilities. We are to be and to do on a finite scale, what God is and does on an infinite scale.

By virtue of being created in the image of God, human beings are capable of reflecting his character in their own life; animals possess none of these qualities. What distinguishes people from animals is the fact that human nature inherently has godlike possibilities.

Omniscience, omnipotence, or omnipresence, none of these other divine attributes have been ascribed to the human race as part of the image of God. We have been created to reflect God in our thinking and actions, but the physical sustained by God and dependent upon him for our existence in this world and in the world to come. Developing a godly character in this present life, this will be our personal identity in the world to come. It is the character or personality that we have developed in this life, that God preserves in his memory.

So these cave people, they would have to have everything we have, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mtLXpgjHL0&feature=related

These cave people would not have had a God conscious, like God has given to the human race a God consciousness, the conscious perception that we could say that there is a God somewhere and that ultimately the human race is accountable to that God.

Nothing made it out alive when the fifth 'a day' came to an end. In the sixth 'a day' God created blood life in the whales. Once something is created, all God has to do breath it into a body.

newnature #fundie religionethics.co.uk

Blood, the blood that courses through one’s veins, represents the life force; the Noahide covenant, you may not spill human blood. And you may not eat animal flesh that has the lifeblood in it, because the blood is the life and that belongs to Yahweh, that’s holy. ?

So the life force is holy, and the life force is in the blood; Leviticus 17:11, repeats the blood prohibition, and then it offers a rationale. “For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have assigned it to you for making expiation for your lives upon the altar.”

Somatids are no longer a mystery. Somatids belong to God. Are your Somatids really yours, or does God something that belongs to him in you.

newnature #fundie religionethics.co.uk

Here is made up stuff. All you have to do is proof that the second Adam's blood didn't drip on the Ark Moses had built.

Matt. 27:51, the earthquake that fractured the rock opened a fissure that ran down through 20 foot of solid rock into a cave and cracked the stone lid on top of a black stone volt where the Ark of the Covenant lie hidden inside, pushing the lid aside. John 19:34, the blood that poured from the side of Jesus, ran down through that crevice and dripped onto the Mercy Seat of the Ark of the Covenant that was hidden by God and the prophet Jeremiah, right under where they crucified Jesus, 620 years earlier when the Babylonians destroyed Salomon’s temple. ?

The Greek word used for “the cross” on which Jesus was put to death is “stauros,” which denotes an upright pale or stake. It never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle, but always of one piece alone. There is nothing in the Greek of the New Testament even to imply two pieces of timber. The blood of Jesus would do no good for the Israelites dripping on “stauros,” because the second Adam’s blood was the basis by which Yahweh would now have just cause to remit or to clear the accounts of those with faith in time past, those who had trusted Yahweh’s word to them and who obeyed what Yahweh told them to do. ?

According to Israel’s New Covenant, when would Yahweh finish what forgiveness alone would not accomplish where Israel’s sins were concerned? When would the forgiveness come? At what time would Yahweh completely clear the slate for Israel nationally-those believers who had been baptized according to John the Baptizer’s program? The blood of the second Adam would make it possible,

newnature #fundie religionethics.co.uk

But just think about this. Who are these dudes and creatures? Crazy! This is more crazy, Jesus has the same kind of life and same kind of flesh and bone body these 24 Elders have. Interesting, this empty place they are in before God created that structure separating them from that empty place. It is the north side of that structure that God stretch out over the empty place. Job 26:7 - In order to stretch out the north over the empty place, there has to be a structure in place separating whatever is inside it from the empty place outside of it.

These 4 magnificent creatures have the same kind of eternal life that God has within himself, but what these magnificent creatures bodies are made of, is unclear. Not only were these 4 magnificent creatures with God, but there were 24 other individuals with God. These 24 individuals are named Elders and they also have the same kind of eternal life that God has within himself, but these Elders have that eternal life in some kind of flesh and bone body. Now God’s body is different then these 24 Elders and these 4 magnificent creatures.

Hope #fundie religionethics.co.uk

Actually, we generally CAN discount natural processes as a possibility, enki. As I've already pointed out, the terms are generally used when all the natural processes have been exhausted or non-functioning - be those the body's own mechanisms or medical science's best provisions. To say that there is somehow a further reserve of natural processes beyond these is to suggest that there is another dimension (for want of a better term) of natural-ity that science isn't able to probe. Could this be the very thng that we're dealing with in this debate - the spiritual element to the natural world?
I accept that miracles don't necessarily follow prayer - but then, questions need to be asked about the motivation of that prayer (was it honest, was it really putting the best for person concerned first - or was it simply selfish on the pasrt of the persdon praying, etc. etc.). Similarly, as with ordinary human situations, NO is a perfectly legitimate answer to requests - they don't all have to be answered in the affirmative, if a 'No' is actually better for the asker. (The famous 'want' v 'need' dilemma).

Incidentally, since so few miraculous healings are reported, not least because of our confidentiality rules, how do you know how many (or few) take place? I woulodn't be able to tell you how many such events have occurred in the UK over the past - say 5 years, simply because they aren't reported by the medical or secular press; however, I can say that I have known upwards of a dozen people who have been healed - in direct contravention (to coin a phrase) of highly authoritative medical opinion - as a result of prayer over the last 2 or 3 years alone.

Again, this is something that has to be experienced, either personally (or at least within a family or close community), before it can be appreciated.

In finishing, I'd fully agree that we need "... to look at the natural world. At least we know that that world exists." It just seems to me that some people understand the term 'the natural world' in different ways to others

Sassy #fundie religionethics.co.uk

Ever seen an animal talking about the weather? Driving a car? Flying a plane?
Because animals do not do those things.

Big clue but no brains to conceive hence the stupidity of mans own nature.
He makes himself lesser because he can't cope with the fact a higher being made him and the man named all the animals.
Animals are animals and humans are humans. Only man could make himself out to be lower than an animal.

Alan Burns #fundie religionethics.co.uk

The virgin birth of Jesus Christ was documented by Luke, a physician and world-class historian who interviewed eyewitnesses, probably including Mary herself, for his detailed account of this world-changing event. In addition to the birth of Christ, he also gives special attention to the birth of John the Baptist and many see his gynecological interests to be a result of his training as a physician.

Spud #fundie religionethics.co.uk

Point about special pleading taken, and ok, sex isn't just about reproduction. But I haven't actually said that same sex couples shouldn't have sex - they can't. What they do is in no shape or form sexual intercourse. What I said was that they shouldn't engage in homosexual acts, which cannot to be compared with it, as ht did.
If I'm not mistaken, the English word 'couple' (meaning a man and woman in a relationship) was coined before homosexuality became accepted, Shaker.

Spud #fundie #homophobia religionethics.co.uk

Absolutely. There is no problem with gay people having good relationships with people of the same sex whom they love, as long as they don’t engage in sexual acts. God created male and female and it was good. Homosexuality is one result of man’s rebellion against God. It is not good. Yes as you say we should be compassionate; the problem comes when you have a communion service, and the priest knows that a member coming for communion is a practicing homosexual. If someone is living in defiance of God’s moral law (eg having an affair), the priest may refuse them communion. This is why it is important to be clear about what the Bible says. The priest is actually doing a more loving thing by not giving them communion because if he did he would be encouraging them to continue to sin, so their soul would not be saved.

Spud #fundie #homophobia religionethics.co.uk

So you have, I am sorry to hear about your experience. I have had an experience with a homosexual that was probably as bad. This guy befriended me at a church when I was new to the area. Not knowing his sexuality I thought him very pleasant, and was intrigued that someone could be so friendly. Well, eventually we discussed relationships, and he told me about a previous one he had had, and that it was with a man. My approach as a Christian was to stay friends with him but make it clear that I believed that was wrong. His approach was to get me in a headlock and force me to say it is not wrong.
Homosexuals are not harmless, they are mentally ill and can be dangerous, just like pedophiles. Read the account of Sodom and Gomorrah for more evidence.
Regarding their rehabilitation. If I had continued to live near to this person I hope I would have forgiven him and remained friends. As it was I moved away and didn't want to stay in contact. However, I know a chap who has had homosexual attraction but is a Christian and has coped with it while remaining celibate. This is due to support from his church. I do not know any pedophiles, but have read an article online written by one, who claims he is also celibate and never molests children. I will try and find a link. But people here who claim all pedophiles do not want to be cured are clearly wrong; neither do they know the power of prayer.

Spud #fundie #homophobia religionethics.co.uk

This is in line with the thread topic, because I am thinking in the context of Christian families who care about the people in society and are willing to take risks in order to help them. As an example, a few male friends who shared a house together took in someone who was an alcoholic. They let him live in their house and encouraged him for some time and he gradually got back into work and living a normal life. If someone can come off alcohol or drugs, then surely a person with homosexual or pedophile-type tendencies can be turned around if they express a desire to do so.
There was something on the news recently about the Spanish prison system. They have much better facilities for rehabilitation, and a much lower proportion of those released re-offend than in Britain.
I guess what I want to get across is that when a person loses something they think of as part of them, for example the freedom to express the desire to molest children (it being illegal), they need something to fill that hole. It can be a hobby or a friendship, something to take away the urges. Sometimes they will surface again but over time an offender can learn how to deal with unwanted desires and live a healthy lifestyle.
In churches where there is real conviction that homosexuality is against God's will, you will find individuals with the gift of helping people struggling in that area; they know how to support them, pray for them and help them change their lifestyle. A lot of it is about not being judgmental when they sometimes fall back into it, recognizing that change doesn't happen overnight.
You said, "How can any of that compare to homosexual relationships between consenting adults?  It is rather an insulting comparison in my opinion."
It depends on what you read. I have found literature which tells a different story about homosexual lifestyles from what one normally hears. You just have to read Shaker's post above to see that he is unwilling to see anything negative about them, or admit that they cause harm. Personally, one look at the biological evidence makes it quite clear that homosexual sex is nothing other than destructive.
We will see eventually whether or not the West's acceptance of homosexuality makes it stronger. It has been interesting to see how the USA and NATO were powerless to do anything about Russia's recent involvement in Syria.
Anyway, thanks for your thoughts.

Spud #fundie #homophobia religionethics.co.uk

Yes I was thinking out loud. Perhaps not with the view to an eventual marriage, then. Except in cases where the child is sexually mature but not old enough by law to marry.

In the case I suggested, it wouldn't be with a view to future marriage, then, and the child wouldn't be told about the pedophile's condition. Forming a friendship with the child but without any physical contact might be therapeutic for the pedophile, in that it would help him learn how to relate to children in the right way. You would have to have the parents' involvement of course. I'm not sure how else you could treat a pedophile for pedophilia.

The only other option would be for them to avoid all contact with children, which would not be achieving as much as if they found they could eventually relate to children socially without needing to go further.

Relating this to homosexuality, it is clear to me that for Christians homosexual practices are forbidden. So I am interested in ways that could help homosexuals to change.

The issue is of course, does it harm anyone. Aside from the obvious harm caused by sodomy, there is the psychological harm to both involved. There is loss of masculinity (in men who treat another man as if female, or behave effeminately) or loss of femininity (in women). I think this is swept under the carpet by people who refer to them as "harmless".

Spud #fundie #homophobia religionethics.co.uk

Such a condition could be treated by the person waiting until the child is an adult, in the mean time suppressing their urges under supervision by a phsychotherapist and perhaps being allowed to conduct a friendship with the child, thus forming an emotional bond with him/her which might be the foundation for a future physical relationship when the child is old enough. We do after all see older men marrying women much younger than themselves.

Supposing for a minute that homosexuality was still illegal. I wonder if a similar kind of process could be found for enabling homosexuals to reach a point where, having suppressed their urges for some time, they could reach the point where they could live with their attraction to the same sex, and form a strong emotional and physical relationship with someone of the opposite sex

Hope #fundie religionethics.co.uk

And, of course, there are examples of such people who have changed from being gay to straight.  I'd be interested to know whether that was, perhaps, the influence of peer pressure when young making them believe that they were gay - because they weren't interested in girls when they were growing up (perhaps they were 'too' interested in non-sexual activites - such as sport - and were judged to be gay by a society that is overly sexualised).

Sriram #fundie religionethics.co.uk

I have written many times earlier about two types of people. Those with the Zoom-In mind and those with the Zoom-Out mind.

The Zoom-In mind is which zooms into things. Details, separating, differentiating, categorizing, specializing, splitting apart and so on. This is the mind  of the average scientist. Always seeing differences.....rarely integrating.

The Zoom-out mind is that which zooms out like a TV camera. Its puts together things that seem different. It integrates, finds similarities, sees everything as parts of a whole.  This is the mind of a philosopher. Always looking for the Big Picture.

Most people here (needless to say) are of the Zoom-In variety. All science enthusiasts,  but by their very nature and nurture only zoom-in people. They will never be able to integrate ideas and  put together seemingly disparate  phenomena.

As far as evidence for direction to evolution is concerned. Its everywhere....most people of the zoom-out variety will be able to see it at once. Those of the zoom-in variety sadly, will not be able to put them together.....that is all.  It is unfortunate but true.   

1. The very fact that such complexity has arisen with all the millions of emergent properties necessary....is enough evidence for a direction. Such complexity arising out of random processes...is ridiculous!

2. The Survival instinct and procreation instincts  born from DNA replication is another evidence of a goal.

3. Epigenetics/neo-Lamarckism are probably the mechanism (besides other unknowns) by which information gathered during ones life time are passed on to the progeny facilitating active adaptation. No need for random stuff.

4. Many other well known ideas such as the Copenhagen Interpretation of QM, Anthropic Principle, Gaia hypothesis all point to an active participation of Consciousness in the world....and to the world being a living system with constant feed back and regulation.

All this is enough evidence for a direction to evolution, according to me....certainly much more than is available for Dark Matter and Dark Energy......but I know that with the Zoom-In mindset of most people here none of this will make any sense. They will be back to baring their fangs with their crass and scornful remarks.    Unfortunate!

Hope #fundie religionethics.co.uk

Sadly, your argument is flawed because we all know that mutations or misdevelopments occur.  For instance, if we take the health of humanity, we know that there are some who have imperfect hearing/vision/etc. Then there are some who suffer from rare (and no so rare) medical conditions.  All theses are natural, but we don't deem them asnormal - or why else do we spend billions of dollars trying to cure them?

The fact that only 3-4% of the population is gay indicates that this condition - like so many others - is natural but not normal.

Spud #fundie #homophobia religionethics.co.uk

Unfortunately, Rhi, the Bible does say that people who practise homosexuality are not in God's kingdom. This is stated in 1 Cor 6:9 and 1 Tim 1:10. So that answers Sassy's point, and means that Christians need to abstain from this as they would abstain from adultery - if they want to be living for God. The passage in acts where the apostles decided which aspects of the Mosaic law needed to be kept by Gentile believers, is to do with those things that God prohibited in Leviticus 17 and 18 which applied to Israelites and non Israelites living with them. The connection should be clear.
But in answer to your second point: yes, people desire sex and that desire is essential to continuing the human race. But there are obvious limits beyomd which the sexual instinct needs to be restrained, and one of those is with homosexual urges. There is a reflex in men which deals with excess build up of sperm. Therefore there is no biological requirement for a man to have sex with another person. I don't know if the equivalent happens with women, and the OT mentions nocturnal emissions as being normal and not sinful. I think the area I need to think through more is how homosexual relationships cause harm. I was friends with a gay bloke and a lesbian at one time, and I was aware that I was personally affected by their homosexuality, because I fancied the lesbian and the bloke fancied me... A right muddle!

Sassy #fundie religionethics.co.uk


Negative proofs fallacies do not exist in an afterlife conversation.
Nothing from ignorance at all because in truth there is NOTHING from an evidence point of few to base a negative proof fallacy on when it comes to the Afterlife.

And that is why you could not do anything or prove anything but come up with the usual load of twaddle which has absolutely '0' and I do mean ZERO meaning or stance in the discussion of an Afterlife.

Sriram #fundie religionethics.co.uk

have no doubt at all about evolution having a direction. The fact that humans have arisen is testimony to that fact. No amount of random gene variation or 'natural selection' of your variety, can explain that.

The Triune system of the OP is a clear indicator of how structures jump from one stage to another to accommodate higher mental functions. A clear case of biology being created to match spiritual development. No doubt at all. :D

Most people also tend to confuse 'science' with materialism. They think these two always go together. This may be a revelation to many here......but it is not necessary.

I don't know how educated most people here are (from the lack of knowledge and crass attitude exhibited here, not much, I gather)...... but they obviously don't seem to realize that materialistic understanding of a process is only at one level. Life has many levels.

More and more into detail with no clue of the Big Picture or how things fit together!!! That's the problem.

But then...that's too much for many people here to understand I realize. :D

Sassy #fundie religionethics.co.uk

In the Christian faith it isn't an opinion it is a fact. You choose whether you go to heaven or hell.
As I know of no other heaven or hell choices then the facts show the belief is based on the choice of the individual.
FULL STOP and not an opinion.

Sassy #fundie religionethics.co.uk

People healed. Prayers answered. Jesus Christ rising from the dead. The things foretold in the bible happening.
The Jews came back to Israel.
King James Bible
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

We are definitely in the time of increase travel and knowledge.

Anyone like yourself, who ingnores the truth to make such untrue claims are fooling no one but themselves.

The truth is that without actually looking for any evidence you speak things you cannot even prove to yourself.

Sassy #fundie religionethics.co.uk

Explain the evidence of God, in truth through his word to the believer.

You see how you perceive evidence? Isn't the things about science and theory received on faith by you.
There is absolutely no way categorically you can produce evidence for the things believed about space, the universe and even our milkyway. But you believe them to be truth. The big bang theory is useless in that it cannot tell you what existed before it and therefore how it came into existence. Till you can produce your evidence to believe what you do, you must accept that our evidence known and believed only by us, is acceptable too.

Sassy #fundie religionethics.co.uk

(on having their statement that there is no gravity on other planets challenged)

Is gravity pulling us down or space pushing us down?

Full explanation of Einsteins theory of  relativity....

Does the movements of planets and the Sun and Moon affect these things?

Mock all you like but the moon has no oxygen and without the suits and the heavy gear they would have floated off...
Wait... doesn't that happen in films where people float off into space because their is nothing to tie them down.

I guess sometimes we have to see the bigger picture. No one can really prove anything about theory can they?

Sassy #fundie religionethics.co.uk

Science is the probably the greatest illusion that man has ever invented. Things work because they tell us they work.
Gravity for instance.... We see the affect of gravity but no one understands why it is here and not on every planet in our solar system.

Alan Burns #fundie religionethics.co.uk

Interesting reflection from today's Lenten reading:

One of the key visuals in the story of the Transfiguration is the divine light that radiates from Jesus. Matthew says, “His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.” Luke reports, “His clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning.” And Mark says, “His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them.”

This light seems to signal the beauty and radiance of a world beyond this one, a world rarely seen, and only occasionally glimpsed, amidst the griminess and ordinariness of this world.

Is this beautiful and radiant world ever seen today? Let me share a few stories with you. When I was traveling recently, I met a man who, as a young man, encountered St. Padre Pio, the famous stigmatist. He was privileged to serve his Mass. During the elevation of the host, after the consecration, this man noticed something remarkable: there was a glow around the holy man’s hands. Years later when he heard reports of “auras” he said to himself, “That’s what I saw that day.”

Malcolm Muggeridge, the English journalist and convert to Catholicism, was filming Mother Teresa for a documentary. One day, the electricity was out, and he bemoaned the fact that he had to film her without lights, convinced that the day would be lost. But when the film was developed, he noticed that the scenes were beautifully lit, and it appeared as though the light was coming from her.

And I know this might be a bit of a stretch, but there is scientific speculation that the marks on the shroud of Turin, the holy icon thought by many to be the burial shroud of Christ, were caused by a burst of radiant energy—light energy.

From the time of the earliest disciples, the holy followers of Jesus were pictured with halos above their heads. What is a halo if it is not the divine light breaking into our world today?

Alan Burns #fundie religionethics.co.uk

I was struck by the phrase "self-deification" used in the Lenten reflection quoted in #10248. I see this as one of the major tools used by the devil to destroy our faith. It is so often used as in:
If I were God I would not allow ....
A good God would never do things this way ....
If God loves us, He will save us no matter what we do ...
God should not have created the devil ...
God would surely intervene to prevent this ....
In these examples the devil is tempting us to assume that our way of thinking is superior to God's. So instead of using our God given gifts of intelligence and intellect for good in the way God intended, the devil tempts us to mis-use them, along with other God given gifts, to destroy out faith

Sriram #fundie religionethics.co.uk


Hi everyone,

1. The sex need is considered the most powerful (even more than hunger and sleep) of our basic urges. It directly links us to our animal past.....and among all those urges that we share with animals, sex is the most powerful.

2. Even many people who can control their eating and sleeping....find it difficult to control their sexual urge.

3. Sex has more of the mental element than the physical and out thoughts and imagination can contribute considerably to our sexual urge. This is another reason why controlling the sex urge is important.

4. Also, unlike hunger and sleep, sex can contribute to very powerful jealousies, anger, possessiveness etc. Even murder can be a result of strong sexual urges.

5. One might share ones last piece of bread but no one will share his woman. If anyone shares a woman he is considered a horrible and brutal person.

6. Unlike hunger, sex involves the likes and dislikes, approval and disapproval of another person...so it needs to be kept in check more carefully. Rapes and molestation happen for sex...not for food.

7. Society has sought to control this very important animal urge through various ways. First through a system of marriage, then monogamy....and in special instances, celibacy.

8. We can see from our own lives that if a person eats too much we don't necessarily dislike that person (we even like such people often), but if a person is a sex maniac he is usually shunned as a pervert and a psychopath.

9. Controlling the sex urge is therefore a direct link to our civilized nature. It separates the human from the animal-like most significantly.

No wonder celibacy is considered an important sign of ones advancement from the animal nature.

Sassy #fundie #homophobia religionethics.co.uk

The OT was the covenant with the Jews not Christians.
It was for people in a different country at a different time. And no matter what you call this thread you cannot use it to poke at subjects that are nothing to do with the Lords Prayer.

There is no mind set to condemn or defend. That was that covenant. But today for Christians they cannot be homosexual in practice because the body is to be used for Gods Glory not mans lusts or to sin in any way.
Christ is for Christians and homosexuality is for homosexuals.  Christians are not allowed to take part in any sexual behaviour considered sin. They cannot sleep with prostitutes and they have to remain in unity with God.

So not really anything to do with Christianity is it?

ad_orientem #fundie religionethics.co.uk


'on being asked what the proof/valudation of Helena finding the 'True Cross ' was'

You can't say that. That would be like asking you to prove that 2+2=4 without using mathematics. It would make no sense. The miracle was the proof, a corpse rose when the cross was held over it.

Hope #fundie religionethics.co.uk

It is a perfectly valid argument simply because - as I've just pointed out in my previous post - the two side of the debate are starting from hugely differenct understandings of reality. Is naturalistic science and its thinking, the sole arbiter of reality - or is reality broader, more multi-faceted than 'mere' naturalism? Without an answer to that conundrum, no-one will be able to claim an argumentative 'victory'.


Sorry, jeremy, when atheists and non-believers make categorical statements and assertions, as many here do, believers here are just as entitled to request evidence to support those statements as non-believers are of believers. Furthermore, whilst documentary evidence of what Christians believe remain on the table of public accessibility, that evidence has to be shown to be wrong. Arguing the case that it could be wrong, or might be wrong, yet without providing evidence of that case, doesn't hold water.

~TW~ #fundie religionethics.co.uk

Just a quick reply to those who are doomed and fully paid up members of the hell bound club.Scripture often tells us about the actions of the Lord and you people are not up to a fair discussion you are simply blinkered in all departments,but as stated the last laugh belongs to the Lord you all have to approach the last day and as you slobber over your beer at the physic meeting at your local pub well have a reading Hebrews 9:27King James Version (KJV)

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

~TW~ #fundie religionethics.co.uk

Hello and good day to the goats/hell bound club.Two scriptures for you.

11 Then I was told, “You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings.”

A scripture about you goats and also this quite interesting 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. this is you the outer court.

They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. The Holy City is symbolic of Gods people,and the 42 months better if you do not know.

Meanwhile talk among yourselves,just remember you are another day near your day.I hope{not to much} you enjoy my post,salvation out of reach for most of you,but at least you can cross your fingers and hope evolution is true. :)

~TW~

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