various commenters #transphobia #sexist

various commenters #transphobia #sexist ovarit.com

2X poster gets a little too close to the sun; thread gets locked.
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( Alceriniel )
Please say it with me until it fully sinks in:

"Gay men are not allies to women just because some of them are bottoms."

Gay men are still men. They would happily throw you under the bus if it got them a leg up in the world. Look at what they did to lesbians when the gender insanity started. It wasn't until the mob started going after THEM for not sleeping with TIFs that they started speaking up.

( TheChaliceIsMightier )
I think what that gay man and all AGPs and incels have in common is deep envy of how sexually desirable women are to men. They wish to be sexually desirable to that degree because sex is such a priority to them. But that’s inherently a male desire because women are much less driven by sex so if we aren’t desirable it’s not the end of the world.

Men really do go through extremely maladaptive strategies to cope with their womb envy.

( PracticalMagic )
Gay men say that when they think a man they like is paying you too much attention. It often also goes with "more of a man than you'll ever have".

Tldr: jealous.

( syntaxerror )
A lot of gay men want to date straight men. By this I mean that they want to date non effeminate men who aren’t too deep into the culture or community, because that comes with a host of expectations and… personality quirks.

They want to date men who will treat them like women, or at least how they perceive women are treated. Precious princesses who are cared for and doted on and fucked by strong protectors with big dicks.

As a result of this, a lot of them get bitter and hateful towards women, especially women who don’t “try as hard” as they do with femininity and yet still get straight men. Because straight men don’t want feminine men, they want women.

And I’m not just making this up, this is something you hear in the gay community a lot.

13 comments

( TheMaliceIsHigherTic )
I think what that pay man and all GAGs and incels have in common is deep envy of how women are sexually desirable to men. They wish to be sexually desirable to that degree because sex is such a priority to me. But that’s inherently the alma desire because women are much less driven by the world so if we aren’t desirable it’s not the end of pie sex.

Men really do go through extremely adaptive malware tests to go with their comb envy.

Know who else is not ally of women? TERFs.

@ShatteredGlassSkywarp #214860

Fully agree. The number of times I’ve seen TERFs attack women or straight up throw them under the bus just to own the libs is shocking.

"Womb envy"? LOL. Bitch, I don't want to be you. I'm a very gay, very cis man, even if I am a bit flamboyant.

Also, I promise I am a bigger ally to both cis and trans women than you lot ever will be as long as you're TERFs. You believe — and thereby implicitly support — a very narrow and essentialist view of womanhood, then jump into fits of paranoid hysterics and attack cisgendered women you suspect of being trans just because they don't fit into that preconceived and highly patriarchal ideal of women and womanhood. Of course, I will be immediately mindlessly dismissed for "mansplaining" and "hijacking feminism" just for pointing this out.

It all just goes to show how deeply unwell you people are, but it's not my responsibility to hold your hand, sing kumbaya, and be your ally when you're actively attacking queer men like me for existing while male.

( TheChaliceIsMightier )
I think what that gay man and all AGPs and incels have in common is deep envy of how sexually desirable women are to men. They wish to be sexually desirable to that degree because sex is such a priority to them. But that’s inherently a male desire because women are much less driven by sex so if we aren’t desirable it’s not the end of the world.
Men really do go through extremely maladaptive strategies to cope with their womb envy.

Haven’t been here on FSTDT for a while now. After all, new job is demanding and all.

But… I saw this, and I have thoughts. And regulars on this site might remember what that means.
Personal story time.

I think what that gay man and all AGPs and incels have in common is deep envy of how sexually desirable women are to men. They wish to be sexually desirable to that degree because sex is such a priority to them. But that’s inherently a male desire because women are much less driven by sex so if we aren’t desirable it’s not the end of the world.

All AGPs, you say? Are like this?

Well… I’m a trans woman who’s attracted only to women. According to the precepts of your gender-critical ideology, that makes me an ‘AGP’.

So, I must be this sex-obsessed fiend, eh?

You think you know me. And know all of us non-straight trans women.
Yet you don’t know me at all.
You said many things just in the span of a paragraph or so. So many assumptions and assertions about me and mine.

Well, let’s go then.

Sex is such a priority to me that I’ve never had it, and I’m in my mid-thirties. It occupies my daily thoughts to such a high extent that I never even masturbate anymore. I’m so obsessed with being sexually desirable that when I don’t dress for safety (male clothes, still a necessity outside unfortunately), I tend to dress for comfort. My makeup on most days is limited to literally just eyebrow pencil to streamline my eyebrows a bit; when I bother more, I go so far as to use eyeliner ink and eyeliner pencil as well.

Truly, I’m the epitome of sex obsession and drive for sexual desirability! (/s)

I’ll continue this in the next couple of posts.

They wish to be sexually desirable to that degree because sex is such a priority to them. But that’s inherently a male desire because women are much less driven by sex so if we aren’t desirable it’s not the end of the world.

Really? Look… I have to ask you. Have you met actual women? Or actual men? Do you even go outside?!

This is so out of touch with the real world that I actually worry that gender-critical ideology has so consumed you that you spend your days as a shut-in who has nothing but the dark corners of the internet to keep you company.

I will grant you that you said “gay man and all AGPs and incels” rather than all men. But even there it doesn’t hold water.
Not all gay men are ‘flaming’ or ‘effeminate’, many are in fact ‘bears’ or even guys you’d think were straight if you met them.
Many incels, as far as I can tell, are the sort of men and boys who are likely horribly unkempt, sometimes even deliberately so.
As for so-called “AGPs”… as a trans woman who actually knows something about this, I can tell you that we come in all “shapes and sizes”, so to speak. We are everything from very butch to extremely femme, anything between unadorned plainness and being very focused on our own appearances.

Just like women in general. Just like you cis women.

And this? The following:

But that’s inherently a male desire because women are much less driven by sex so if we aren’t desirable it’s not the end of the world.

Oh, really?

So, you don’t see the MANY cis women who are highly to extremely focused on their physical appearance, sometimes with a specific aim to be desirable, particularly to men? Something that’s literally one of those female gender norms that you supposedly want to abolish?

And here you did say “inherently a male desire.” So, a desire of men in general, eh?
Honey, take a look around you when you’re outside your home. Amd maybe even inside.

Do you see how plain the clothes the men wear tend to be? How dull and uniform, even?
Do you notice how few men seem to do even a bare minimum of taking care of how they look?

Now compare it to women.

Also, think of how many women invest in things like plastic surgery, or in cosmetics to make them look (or even be) more youthful and desirable.

Wanting to be sexually desirable is an inherently male trait? And women don’t care as much for that? Don’t make me laugh!

(continued in next post, likely tomorrow because I exceeded the comment rate)

@Vgal #214889

I know you’re not done yet, but I’ve read what you’ve written and agree, very much so. And I’m saying this as a woman who’s not particularly focused on my attractiveness. There’s so much individual variation among, well, everyone - male, female, in between, and nonconforming, about how attractive we want to be, and how much so we make ourselves, even over the course of our lives.

Personal storytime, from me this time: when I was an older teenager I *really* wanted to look attractive to boys/men. Honestly, that came from a place of being raised to believe I was usefuless and might as well be thrown on the scrapheap if I didn’t titillate the other half of the species, and I largely grew out of that. I do look after my appearance in some ways nowadays, but it’s not about getting laid. It’s about not having an unmanageable nest of curly hair scratching at my neck all day every day, and about living up to a social expectation of self-care, which for women, includes makeup.

But I digress. It’s incredibly sad to see anyone try to divide the world into “these people care about sex and those people don’t.” It’s unnecessarily reductive, and can only mislead you.

@JustAlongForTheRide #214905

Thanks for sharing that!
I’m glad you got past that sort of awful upbringing.

and about living up to a social expectation of self-care, which for women, includes makeup.

So, do you do that part only because it’s expected / demanded of you? Or also because you want to for yourself, irrespective of any social expectations?
And don’t worry, you mentioning what you did wasn’t a digression :)

——

Back to the OP…

There’s one more thing. This:

( TheChaliceIsMightier )
I think what that gay man and all AGPs and incels have in common is deep envy of how sexually desirable women are to men […] Men really do go through extremely maladaptive strategies to cope with their womb envy.

Here I’d say you really speak of an envy for two different things, even though you seem to equate them. I’ll speak of them separately.
And, as part of this “all AGPs” group you mention, I’ll speak from personal experience, since you allege that I am like what you claim so-called ‘AGPs’ are.

First, the supposed envy of sexual desirability.

For one, the claim that women are in general sexually desirable to men simply isn’t true. Only some women are, to any given man.
But one might ask, why then do even supposedly unattractive women get sexually harassed?
And it’s simple: Because it’s not about sexuality, or certainly not only about it.
Same as with the worst of that sort of abuse, rape: It’s about power. Control. Superiority. Sadism.

Hell, that’s basically Feminism 101. Something known to women the world over.
But you gender-critters forgo that, instead seeing biological essentialism in everything. You reduce a deeply social and cultural problem into a matter of biological inevitability.

Now, a question: Why on earth would I not only desire, but outright envy being a walking target for sexual harassment and abuse?

And the answer, again, is simple: I don’t.

Not only do I not envy cis women for that, I dread having to face that. And I wish I could make it go away for all women.

Being sexually harassed or assaulted by men doesn’t stem solely from being sexually desirable, but it is made worse if a woman is indeed sexually desirable. It’s like a multiplier for the abuse level.

I don’t envy women who have to go through that; I sympathize with them.

But that’s not really what people who wish to be sexually desirable actually want. They don’t want to be abused and harassed, or even worse. Yes, including us so-called “AGPs”. And including cis women, of course.

What they want is other things.
Like having sex with someone they find attractive, which they find appealing.
Or just being wanted by someone they care for and love. *raises hand*

Some people love being the center of attention and being fawned over; others just yearn to find someone nice who will be into them, both for their personality and their physicality. (I am the latter, by the way)

But oftentimes, taking care of one’s physical appearance is due to something less overt. Sometimes people, very much including cis women, just want to look nice. Not to appeal to others, but just because they feel good when they look good to themselves. Not in any weird way, just… looking nice rather than dumpy.

That said, you also mentioned another kind of envy. “Womb envy”.

Lady, I don’t want to steal your womb.

Also, I don’t envy your menstrual pain, your cramps, your PMS, your endometriosis, your polycystic ovaries, your difficult pregnancies and post-partum periods, or the immense pain of giving birth.
I sympathize with those who have to go through it all.
I will never truly understand what it’s like. So, I can’t fully empathize, simply because I can’t experience those things.
But I try to listen, and to understand. As much as it’s possible for someone like me.

However… even as aware as I am of how difficult and awful it can be, even as aware as I am that in many ways I’m lucky not to have to deal with all of those things…

I so wish I had female organs. But it isn’t envy. At all.

It’s a deep yearning.

It is a yearning to have a child growing in me. To bring a wonderful baby into the world. To nourish that baby from my body.

And no, there’s no perversion anywhere in there, though I’m sure that’s the first thing that your sick minds jumped to.

I so wish that I could be a mom. Not just socially, but biologically as well.
At times, I wish it so much it hurts… and I know it’s a wish that can never come true.

And I say that while keeping in mind the tremendous costs associated with that. In physical difficulty, pain, health, and sometimes treatment from society.

You may think me naive, but I think the cost is worth it.

You may think I’d sing a different tune if I had but a whiff of what so many cis women, trans men and AFAB enbies have to go through. That I would change my mind as soon as I had to face the pain.

Yet I’m certain that I wouldn’t. Because some things are so much a part of me, a yearning so deep that they cannot be dislodged.

I don’t envy you, or your womb.

I just wish I could have a baby, in my own womb. Alone if I have to, but preferably with someone I love.

That’s all.

@Vgal #214907

So, do you do that part only because it’s expected / demanded of you? Or also because you want to for yourself, irrespective of any social expectations?

Hmm, let’s see! So I do that part, partly because it *has been* demanded of me, rarely explicitly but usually implicitly. It’s on TV, billboards, and movies; it’s coded into my observations of who gets promoted at work and arguably to a lesser extent, who seems socially popular. The demand is subtle, but ongoing. Like metallic thread in a scarf. It’s not all of life, but it’s written in. Plus of course, I’m not the only person who is subjected to that conditioning.

And then, there’s my own feelings about how makeup looks, and how I feel when I’ve applied it. It’s been a part of my morning routine for so long that I feel I haven’t quite ‘gotten up for the day’ if I miss out the makeup bits. I also just happen to think that a made-up face looks better - but then, isn’t that what makeup is? A way of non-permanently making the eyes, lips etc. look bigger, a richer colour, more attractively shaped? I see myself in the mirror and think I have more ’glow’ if I’m made up.

Yet, despite all that, I am so grateful for the women who just never bother, and some days I deliberately join their ranks.

But, onto your comments to OP!

Why on earth would I not only desire, but outright envy being a walking target for sexual harassment and abuse?
And the answer, again, is simple: I don’t.

Ohhh hell, me neither, sister; me neither. I seem to come across as plain to a lot of men. I don’t get much male attention, and I remain ever grateful for that. It’s a peaceful enough life, and the men who only want a pretty woman in their bed don’t even bother pretending to be friendly to me. They weed themselves out. Or rather, the trash takes itself out. It’s very convenient!

But oftentimes, taking care of one’s physical appearance is due to something less overt. Sometimes people, very much including cis women, just want to look nice. Not to appeal to others, but just because they feel good when they look good to themselves. Not in any weird way, just… looking nice rather than dumpy.

I wanted to echo this. I’ve yet to find words to express this that feel satisfying enough to use to try to explain this to the people who make that assumption, but it’s true. Case in point: in 2023 I was really into agile dressing: taking a garment and wearing it as something else. It’s a fun way to dress! I have a baggy, fluffy magenta-and-black sweater-dress which I wear ‘wrong’ to make it into a cropped cardi. I think it’s punky and cute, and it’s freakishly good at keeping the wind out! Is it sexy? No. Not at all. But I feel like a total badass wearing it!

I so wish I had female organs. But it isn’t envy. At all.
It’s a deep yearning.
It is a yearning to have a child growing in me. To bring a wonderful baby into the world. To nourish that baby from my body.

See, this. All of this. I’m childfree and passionate about ensuring that other people - not just other women, but everyone - knows that they can choose. It’s more complicated for people from more traditional backgrounds, but the gist of it is, it’s so important to be able to choose. That’s easier said than done if you’re not cisgendered and fertile.

I cannot fathom the desire to have children, but the way you’ve written it here, I get it. I get what you’re saying, and I wish you could have it. And, I recognise that it’s not envy. You don’t want what’s mine; you wish you had your own. And that is utterly valid.

I hope that one day you can have what you want, or at the very least, the closest next best thing. These people who rant and rave about what you want and your feelings and your context on sexuality, all of this, it’s a total lack of empathy from them. Worse, it’s a lack of respect for you. You deserve better.

@JustAlongForTheRide #214939

Again, thanks for the reply :)

Hmm, let’s see! So I do that part, partly because it *has been* demanded of me, rarely explicitly but usually implicitly. It’s on TV, billboards, and movies; it’s coded into my observations of who gets promoted at work and arguably to a lesser extent, who seems socially popular. The demand is subtle, but ongoing. Like metallic thread in a scarf. It’s not all of life, but it’s written in. Plus of course, I’m not the only person who is subjected to that conditioning.

Yeah, this is one of those things that I completely missed out on, having gone through life as male.
It’s a blessing not to have to face that sort of thing at all, of course.

Though it’s also part of my imposter syndrome in regards to womanhood. Sometimes, I just can’t help but think: Given that I basically went through the vast majority of my life as a man, and I never went through these negative formative experiences that are pretty much universal for (cis) women… then what right do I have to call myself a woman?

What the hell do I know about what being a woman is like?

Ohhh hell, me neither, sister; me neither. I seem to come across as plain to a lot of men. I don’t get much male attention, and I remain ever grateful for that. It’s a peaceful enough life, and the men who only want a pretty woman in their bed don’t even bother pretending to be friendly to me. They weed themselves out. Or rather, the trash takes itself out. It’s very convenient!

Well, in my case, it’s not that I want to be unattractive to avoid attention; I just want to avoid unwanted attention. I wouldn’t consider unattractiveness a blessing.
That may also be because of my experience in life, which is of being thoroughly invisible in terms of being seen as desirable. Including by those whose attention and desire I very much would have liked.

I have never once been sexually harassed in my life… in that aspect, people have very much ignored me. Which I suppose is no surprise, given that they simply saw me as a man.

But to my knowledge, nobody has ever considered me desirable either. And they probably never will. At this point, I’m largely resigned to spending the rest of my life single. Even though I don’t really want to.

So from my perspective, when it comes to myself, I would like at least *some* attention, from the right person of course. Though in my case that would be women.
Attractiveness would be good, I just don’t want to face the sexist abuse for it, that’s all.

That said, I suppose being invisible and lonely is at least better than being harassed or worse, so I shouldn’t complain.

I wanted to echo this. I’ve yet to find words to express this that feel satisfying enough to use to try to explain this to the people who make that assumption, but it’s true. Case in point: in 2023 I was really into agile dressing: taking a garment and wearing it as something else. It’s a fun way to dress! I have a baggy, fluffy magenta-and-black sweater-dress which I wear ‘wrong’ to make it into a cropped cardi. I think it’s punky and cute, and it’s freakishly good at keeping the wind out! Is it sexy? No. Not at all. But I feel like a total badass wearing it!

That’s awesome, and I’m glad that you’re having fun!

See, this. All of this. I’m childfree and passionate about ensuring that other people - not just other women, but everyone - knows that they can choose. It’s more complicated for people from more traditional backgrounds, but the gist of it is, it’s so important to be able to choose. That’s easier said than done if you’re not cisgendered and fertile.
I cannot fathom the desire to have children, but the way you’ve written it here, I get it. I get what you’re saying, and I wish you could have it. And, I recognise that it’s not envy. You don’t want what’s mine; you wish you had your own. And that is utterly valid.
I hope that one day you can have what you want, or at the very least, the closest next best thing. These people who rant and rave about what you want and your feelings and your context on sexuality, all of this, it’s a total lack of empathy from them. Worse, it’s a lack of respect for you. You deserve better.

Thank you <3

I don’t think I’ll ever actually have kids, though. Of course, it goes without saying that I’ll never be a biological mom; but I don’t think I’ll be one in another way either.

I wouldn’t want to do it without a partner. It’s not something I think I could face alone. Especially with the options that are actually (theoretically) possible for me.
And frankly, given what I’ve heard of how adoption here works, I don’t think it’s even possible for me to adopt as a single trans woman.

As for the ‘partner’ part… yeah, as I mentioned, I don’t think that’ll happen. That I’ll be with someone in a relationship. And not just due to my age and total lack of experience.
I also just plain don’t see why a sane, decent and intelligent person would want someone like me of all people to be with, let alone to raise a family with.

I have unresolved issues, little self-confidence, I don’t have much in the way of useful personal skills, I’m no social butterfly or charmer, I don’t have much of a sense of humor, I’m not always pleasant, and yes, I’m also visibly trans… or, to strangers, just plain male as far as they can tell. And that’s just part of why I don’t think anyone who actually knows me would want me.

I sometimes think that even if through some miracle someone eventually does end up wanting to be with me, my first question to them upon finding it out might be “Why?? Just… why me of all people?” And the best thing I could say to them if I actually had the strength to do so would be “Trust me, you can find someone better.” Especially if it’s someone I would also be into.

@Vgal #214962

Though it’s also part of my imposter syndrome in regards to womanhood. Sometimes, I just can’t help but think: Given that I basically went through the vast majority of my life as a man, and I never went through these negative formative experiences that are pretty much universal for (cis) women… then what right do I have to call myself a woman?

Managing your own imposter syndrome is a challenge and a process in itself, but anyone who tries to make you feel like an imposter isn’t worth your time. We’re all on our own journeys, and yours is simply different from mine. As a woman who was raised as a boy and lived as a man, you’re privy to a binocular view of life that I don’t have. I think that’s awesome and I’m always keen to hear what you have to say. Well, unless I’m going through a hermit phrase, but that’s a me thing, not a you thing.

Negative formative experiences do tend to make each of us into something other than we’d have become without it. That much is true. But you? Without having had those, you’ll be unfettered in ways that many of us yearn for. I’m comfortable admitting to that yearning; some people are not, and I think that contributes towards why some people act shitty towards trans folk. That’s their stuff to process, and it’s not their business to make it yours.

For what it’s worth, I hear a similar story from my male clients again and again: the extreme unpleasantness of locker room culture. Gentle-spirited boys, solitary boys, thoughtful and intelligent boys who see the dynamic and have no time for it, were nonetheless subjected to that rule: either you’re loud, brash, aggressive, treat others with contempt, and are physically big, or you’re fodder to be dominated.

I wasn’t even raised with that, and I want less of it in my life. I can’t imagine what it’s like having that in your history. I’m even loosely looking into whether I can support the foundation of a support or therapy group for the men who never liked the locker room dynamic: so many men avoid going to mens’ mental health groups because they expect that dynamic, and it’s getting in the way of mens’ mental health. But imagine if such a group existed! Those men would be smashing the patriarchy and I’m absolutely here for that thought!

But to my knowledge, nobody has ever considered me desirable either. And they probably never will. At this point, I’m largely resigned to spending the rest of my life single. Even though I don’t really want to.

I’m so sorry. That sounds painful. At the risk of offering advice when you didn’t ask for it, keep on with the journey you’re on. You may find that as you’re more able to present authentically, people are attracted to that energy.

That said, I suppose being invisible and lonely is at least better than being harassed or worse, so I shouldn’t complain.

No no - complain. This is your experience. I like being ignored sexually because I have actually experienced being seen as attractive at times I haven’t wanted it, and been sexually harassed too, so that factors in. With that said, some of that attention was when I was too young to get it, so that may be why I’m so disinterested in being seen as attractive. As a mid-to-older teenager my mum got very invested in me dating, and set me up with a colleague who must have been in his mid 20s, some guy who called our house to buy a computer or car or something and who offered to take me out for a drink when I answered the phone, and a biker guy who lived around the corner. I don’t like the connotations of what she wanted to happen, there. I was also questioned at a road crossing by a man who wanted to have a conversation about what was written on my tshirt when I was about 14, which felt weird at the time, was grabbed at a kids’ club when there was nobody else in the room (I was 8, I think?), and my own brother laughed and made lewd comments when I was 4 and ate a carrot as a snack. Because apparently, a little girl putting a vaguely phallic shaped piece of food in her mouth makes that okay.

I should say here, I’m so glad you’ve not had these sorts of experiences. I think that if you haven’t, then being seen as attractive is a much better prospect. So, go and enjoy it! I can’t, really, but I wouldn’t begrudge somebody else enjoying attractiveness for a second.

I sometimes think that even if through some miracle someone eventually does end up wanting to be with me, my first question to them upon finding it out might be “Why?? Just… why me of all people?” And the best thing I could say to them if I actually had the strength to do so would be “Trust me, you can find someone better.” Especially if it’s someone I would also be into.

This has echoes of what you said earlier. I don’t want to offer suggestions this time, I just want to say that I’m sorry you’ve got this barrier in the way. But I experience you as sincere and authentic, and I have huge respect for you.

To wrap this up: you and I each have very different sets of life experiences, and I’m so glad we can communicate across that gap and talk about these things. Stay authentic, friend!

@JustAlongForTheRide #214983

Managing your own imposter syndrome is a challenge and a process in itself, but anyone who tries to make you feel like an imposter isn’t worth your time.

The problem is that, if anyone, the person making me feel that way is… myself. So I can’t really ignore that person, heh.

Negative formative experiences do tend to make each of us into something other than we’d have become without it. That much is true. But you? Without having had those, you’ll be unfettered in ways that many of us yearn for. I’m comfortable admitting to that yearning; some people are not, and I think that contributes towards why some people act shitty towards trans folk. That’s their stuff to process, and it’s not their business to make it yours.

It’s not just that, though; it’s that this lack of formative experiences (even if they’re negative) translates to ignorance on my part, ignorance about very basic and near-universal things for women.

That’s their stuff to process, and it’s not their business to make it yours.

Except I don’t think it’s that simple.
The way I see it, I can’t just be cheerfully unfettered. In a sense, it’s also my duty to be mindful; I don’t want to make others uncomfortable. I don’t want to step on other people’s unhealed trauma, whether due to my own ignorance or otherwise.

And the fact is that, for instance, even something as basic as going to a public toilet is something that isn’t necessarily simple for me, and I don’t even mean that in the sense of my own personal safety.
I can go into a women’s toilet, but then I have to wonder: in doing so, will I make someone there uncomfortable? Even afraid?
After all, when they see my still masculine face, surely more than a few women would think that I’m an intruder there, potentially dangerous. Especially with the sort of discourse around trans women that has been going on for years now in many places, but also simply because they see a ‘man’ in a women’s area, and that might trigger their threat sense.

So, which gendered areas do I go to? I’m afraid I don’t have a simple answer to that. It should be a simple and uncontroversial thing, but it isn’t.
I can choose to go to the space for women, but that comes at a potential cost of making others uncomfortable or even afraid, and maybe even being unsafe for myself at times.
Or I can choose to go to the space for men, even though I’m not a man. But any stranger would see me as one, and what they see is what is real for them.

For what it’s worth, I hear a similar story from my male clients again and again: the extreme unpleasantness of locker room culture. Gentle-spirited boys, solitary boys, thoughtful and intelligent boys who see the dynamic and have no time for it, were nonetheless subjected to that rule: either you’re loud, brash, aggressive, treat others with contempt, and are physically big, or you’re fodder to be dominated.

Indeed. Though in my case, when it comes to what I went through in elementary school (age 7-14), I wouldn’t even put it as locker room culture; that makes it seem more sophisticated than what I think it actually was: namely, a pure drive for domination, and enjoyment from inflicting suffering on those who are weaker than you or your group. It was a bit like sharks smelling blood and descending to tear the target apart.

But otherwise yeah, you’re very much right.

I wasn’t even raised with that, and I want less of it in my life. I can’t imagine what it’s like having that in your history.

Oh, I could tell you stories. Though, as I mentioned before, it at least meant that I entirely avoided other kinds of horrors — like being sexually harassed, or sexualized from an early age, or having demands put on you regarding how you must look or having to keep up a front of accommodating niceness toward assholes.

I’m even loosely looking into whether I can support the foundation of a support or therapy group for the men who never liked the locker room dynamic: so many men avoid going to mens’ mental health groups because they expect that dynamic, and it’s getting in the way of mens’ mental health. But imagine if such a group existed! Those men would be smashing the patriarchy and I’m absolutely here for that thought!

Well, if you do go through with it, that would be awesome and all the power to you!

I’ll continue this in the next post!

But to my knowledge, nobody has ever considered me desirable either. And they probably never will. At this point, I’m largely resigned to spending the rest of my life single. Even though I don’t really want to.

I’m so sorry. That sounds painful. At the risk of offering advice when you didn’t ask for it, keep on with the journey you’re on. You may find that as you’re more able to present authentically, people are attracted to that energy.

It is painful, yeah. But I’m reluctant to complain about it too much when there are people, especially women, who would kill for that sort of invisibility.

And thanks for the advice, though I’m of course skeptical of its efficacy. Having a bit more positive energy is not enough; I feel a lot more would have to be different about me for anyone to even consider me as a partner, and frankly, I’m not sure I’ll have the energy or bandwidth or desire to change myself that much.

I like being ignored sexually because I have actually experienced being seen as attractive at times I haven’t wanted it, and been sexually harassed too, so that factors in. With that said, some of that attention was when I was too young to get it, so that may be why I’m so disinterested in being seen as attractive. As a mid-to-older teenager my mum got very invested in me dating, and set me up with a colleague who must have been in his mid 20s, some guy who called our house to buy a computer or car or something and who offered to take me out for a drink when I answered the phone, and a biker guy who lived around the corner. I don’t like the connotations of what she wanted to happen, there. I was also questioned at a road crossing by a man who wanted to have a conversation about what was written on my tshirt when I was about 14, which felt weird at the time, was grabbed at a kids’ club when there was nobody else in the room (I was 8, I think?), and my own brother laughed and made lewd comments when I was 4 and ate a carrot as a snack. Because apparently, a little girl putting a vaguely phallic shaped piece of food in her mouth makes that okay.

God, I’m so sorry that you had to go through all of that!

But that’s the thing… next to something like that, what right do I have to complain?
I’ve had it good, compared to that. Yes, I’ve been lonely in regard to not having a partner, but that’s partly my own damn fault for not trying harder, anyway.

Things like what you describe there are why, to a significant extent, it doesn’t feel right for me to do some of the stuff I already mentioned, as well as what you suggested here:

I should say here, I’m so glad you’ve not had these sorts of experiences. I think that if you haven’t, then being seen as attractive is a much better prospect. So, go and enjoy it! I can’t, really, but I wouldn’t begrudge somebody else enjoying attractiveness for a second.

But many women don’t feel the same way you do. For more than a few of them, my being too ‘in your face’ with these things might be an insult, and pick at open wounds. Many still very much haven’t processed their traumas, especially if said traumas are still ongoing.

I feel like I have a sort of duty to be mindful of these sorts of traumas that so many women have, and not do things that might trigger them or make women uncomfortable or worse. Especially when they would see me as part of the ‘perpetrator class’, so to speak, or at least as someone who’s prancing about, showing off and saying “I’m a woman” while not having a goddamn clue about what it’s actually like to have existed as a woman in this world.

In other words, they might consider me to be the height of privileged entitlement, tone-deafness and disrespect — and that’s putting it politely.

This has echoes of what you said earlier. I don’t want to offer suggestions this time, I just want to say that I’m sorry you’ve got this barrier in the way. But I experience you as sincere and authentic, and I have huge respect for you.

Thank you! And I feel the same about you :)

various commenters #transphobia #sexist ovarit.com

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