XX_Power ,crodish & BlackCirce #transphobia #sexist ovarit.com

RE: Male pattern behavior is male pattern behavior. A detrans label does not negate nor absolve that.

( XX_Power )
I mean they're deTRANS for a reason, at some point they saw the misogynistic clown show that is the trans movement and thought, wow, that really makes sense! Then his dick stopped working or he was "too ugly for a woman", or his AGP was getting boring and now he's back to being a super special misogynistic male.

I'm not about to slag off female detransitioners, from reading in their spaces most of them get that trans isn't anything and they just tried to run away from womanhood for any reason from hating dresses to severe sexual child abuse.

Now the males.... Some definitely get it. But most just seem to detrans because they hormones didn't transform them into a sexy catgirl lesbian of their dreams so they're bitter and disappointed but didn't actually stop believing in the insane ideology or even grasp the misogyny behind it.

But all these words to say: males be maleing

( crodish )
This detrans male has a history of being groomed in particular by female TRA and libfems and explains this as his reasoning for hating them as similar to how most radical feminists "hate" men.

I've not engaged with nor followed very closely the detrans twitter community, but from what I've seen of it (particularly after Detrans Awareness Day) it seems that within that community they are still very prone to TRA-like manners of thinking, and most of them just "upgraded" back to normal misogynists that acknowledge their sex, including most female detransitioners.

I'm cautious and worried that these people are simply just becoming a rebranded group that feminists will also have to defend themselves from. Sigh.

More worrying still is I think this male also took the advice to start his own community for other detrans males. Which... good for him, good job, but I can already foresee it becoming just another incel space but with the detrans label siiiiiigh

( BlackCirce )
Many (idk if it’s most) people blame feminists/feminism/women for trans. Some of them are angry and resentful that in order to be against trans, they have to share space with radical feminists, who have been fighting trans for over 40 years. They want to be anti-trans and anti-feminist at the same time, but find the political space occupied by a different group of feminists.


Various Commenters #transphobia #sexist ovarit.com

Don’t give young TIMs a pass
I know it’s easy to be sympathetic towards dysphoric young TIMs but they can be just as creepy (if not even more so) than the older ones. The newest generations of TIMs have been raised on hardcore fetish porn and even more strictly enforced gender roles. They are even more openly depraved than the previous generations of TIMs and are unafraid of showing it. Just look at Twitter! Don’t give them a pass. Chase them out of female spaces!

( youwholou )
YES. Same for TIFs. I made the mistake of thinking they were harmless and I ended up getting sexually harassed by them. Their mindset is so toxic and fueled by misogyny and porn. Don't let these people into your lives and spaces if you can help it.

( jeannedeaux )
The testosterone overdose cannot possibly be helping. I've read that TIF violent-crime rates increase to nearly match those of men after they go on T.

( XxWomanxX )
As a gen z currently surrounded by these TIMs I approve of this message . They are into some of the most disgusting fetishes 🤢 Seriously don’t let their youth fool you they will eventually turn into the classic creepy middle aged AGP as they age. The only difference is that now they have been given the confidence to act out their fetishes in the open and then being praised for being their authentic self

( itsnotaboutewe )
These teen boys who come out as trans seem to change from being young men who were brought up to be respectful towards their elders and polite to women and girls, and turn into disgusting and hateful misogynists who take enjoyment from tormenting and threatening women. I wonder what their mothers think of their new and horrifying personalities? Is this stuff lurking under the polite facade of every male?

spacykate #ableist #enbyphobia ovarit.com

San Francisco's Bay to Breakers, known for its zany inclusivity, refuses to give awards to nonbinary runners

This is entirely ridiculous, this is a bunch of nobodies pretending that they're the same as the men's and women's elite runner category. Its like giving the retarded kid a BS award so they can stand on the podium too.

Various Commenters #transphobia ovarit.com

RE: "Most transsexuals are AGPs" - true?

( Tortoisemouse )
Thanks for all replies.

Is it not the case that many TiMs are gay men with internalised homophobia and/or struggling with being gender-nonconforming? Presumably they wouldn't be AGP?

I don't know for sure but I would hazard a guess that most of the TiMs I see around campus are gay men. They are student age. But I guess I am only seeing a subsection of the demographic, as this is a University city.

( IrishTheFrenchie )
Those are the minority of TIMs.

Blanchard was quoted as saying he estimated 75% or so were AGP back when he did his research (so that’s back in 80’s-90’s). The number must be higher today.

( Ladylucy )
Do you think there more AGPs because the internet has normalized fetishes?

( IrishTheFrenchie )
I think it's normalized but I also think the increasing perversion in society and easier access to violent, degrading porn has played a role.

( LOriginedumonde )
One would think that there must be a negative correlation between gay acceptance and the prevalence of HSTS, and a positive correlation between gay acceptance and the prevalence of AGPs.

( IrishTheFrenchie )
Straight men in pursuit of orgasm are definitely more privileged and act more entitled than a gay man trying to escape homophobia.

( ProxyMusic )
But most gay men who adopt a cross-sex identity as a response to homophobia are also in pursuit of orgasm. Gay boys and men are just as much driven by the male libido and male pursuit of their own sexual pleasure as any bog standard straight guys are.

Moreover, gay boys and men who become TIMs are not necessarily "trying to escape homophobia." Their actions are partly or largely a way of responding to homophobia, yes, but responding to homophobia isn't the same as an attempt to escape homophobia. On the contrary, for the majority of gay guys who become TIMs, adopting an opposite-sex identity seems to be their way of caving to and thoroughly embracing homophobia.

Many gay TIMs with internalized homophobia also have lots of externalized homophobia too. They say and do many things that are overtly homophobic. Some celebrate their own homophobia towards gay guys who aren't TIMs and especially towards lesbians. Which is why it's so easy for them to find fellowship and solidarity with straight men with AGP.

various Commenters #transphobia ovarit.com

RE: New poll shows more than 52% of likely Democratic voters in Florida back 'Don't Say Gay' bill | Daily Mail Online

(hard_headed_woman )
I've seen some non-binary, crazy young women who claim to be teachers, and the things they are telling their students is awful.

I'm truly starting to wonder whether I support full employment rights for "transgender" crazies.

(NoOneSpecial )
The T literally cannibalized the LGB and destroyed all the hard work that has been done to gain our acceptance. Shame on these sexist proliferators of the gender divide.

Same thing happened with the Equality Act. They mashed gender ideology with basic understanding about same-sex attraction, making the protection of one (LGB folk) dependent on the peddling of the other (transgender nonsense). Horribly, "protecting" transgenderism as these people claim to be doing directly removes the safeguarding of the LGB community. You cannot protect against discrimination based on sexual orientation if sexual orientation doesn't exist. They handed a win to all the religious homophobes.

This is what happens when you don't protect sex as a class from discrimination, but you're more than willing to protect sexist gender stereotypes.

(NO )
See? You trans people will make it so gay people lose rights. Can't you put your willy away for one second? I know you think your erections are more important than all women globally and all gay and bi men combined and here you're seeing the consequences.

Leave us gays the fuck out of your ideology.

( Ladylucy )
TRAs are doing more than causing gays to lose their rights. They’re trying to wipe gays by transitioning gay, lesbian and bi kids. I read that some gays are calling it the “gay genocide or gay eugenics.”

( Amareldys )
This goes beyond gay and women's rights.

They are asking people to literally lie in a major way and say things are the opposite of what they are. Not to pretend for the sake of niceness... but to literally believe a lie. Everyone. Not just gays. Not just women. Everyone.

Various Commenters #transphobia ovarit.com

RE: instinctively repelled by trans people

( actualdyke )
I think it's absolutely a primal thing because I experience this too and I know a lot of other women do as well. you can thank millennia of evolution for hardwiring your brain to spot threats / danger / poison etc. if your brain reacts with disgust and repulsion when you see a balding middle-aged man with his beer gut spilling out of his crop top and PVC skirt, then congratulations, you are an evolutionary success!

( Gladys_Kravitz )
Oh this is definitely an evolutionary response.

I think we react with even more revulsion (compared to non TIMs) because what we're seeing is a fundamentally dishonest man, and dishonest men are dangerous and unpredictable.

( actualdyke )
not just dishonest dangerous and unpredictable, but almost certainly sexually perverted as well.

( Gladys_Kravitz )
I mean, they're inherently repulsive. They've deliberately chosen to reside in Uncanny Valley.

(XX_Power )
I have the same reaction to trans males, it's visceral. I think it's a mix of the uncanny valley response which is innate, and the experience that they're always huge misogynists. Female trans people i don't have that reaction at all, i mostly feel pity.

( MissMilotic )
Yes I have definitely noticed that MTF men are often far more narcissistic and difficult to deal with than FTM women. Obviously some FTMs can be insufferable but it seems quite a bit rarer, whereas MTFs often seem to want lots of attention and to feel sexually desirable.

( AGP_awareness )
Most of them are AGPs, so it goes with the territory.

Various Commenters #transphobia #crackpot #dunning-kruger #psycho ovarit.com

Indian surgeon plans to transplant womb into a TRANS woman and get them pregnant in world-first op that could pave way for biological men to get pregnant

( MadSea )
Very much looking forward to the deaths this fool will cause with his mad science experiments.

Also, how is it a transplant if there was never one there to begin with? Wouldn’t it just be an implant?

( hmimperialtortie )
Someone should say he’s a TRANSPHOBE 😱 because he’ll kill the poor helpless twans wimmin who Just Wanna Have Babies doing this.

( Stealthygal )
Clearly he's doing this to kill TW on purpose

( hmimperialtortie )
It’s his cunning plan to get rid of them. Muahahahaha!

( RusticTroglodyte )
Only a total deluded fuckhead would voluntarily sign up to give birth and I say that as someone who has a kid look

Jk but Srsly how fucking privileged can these ppl get

( hmimperialtortie )
Ain’t that the truth.

Far as I’m concerned it’s Schadenfreude all the way if these filthy scrotes do finally suffer the consequences of their perversions and misogyny.

( RighteousIndignation )
good point its an implant and it will rot and be attacked by the body, they cant even keep their neo virginas open without dilating them daily to stop the body healing them like the wound they are, how the hell is a uterus not going to get attacked by the immune system and shrivel up into a little rotten ball that causes blood poisoning.

( crodish )
Seriously, with other organs like the heart and liver etc the body at least has DNA blueprints for those, because both sexes have the same organs. A male body is going to have zero idea what to do with a female uterus. The person is going on have to be on a ridiculous amount of anti-rejection medications and hormones and blood transfusions.

I like too that somehow we're not hearing a huge outcry from the ethics boards about this...

Various Commenters #transphobia ovarit.com

TiM is "furious" that female children "get to experience [girlhood] daily without any effort"

( butchplease )
"I'm all "No, I don't wanna go home!" but my mom and the birthday girl's mom tell me "it's a sleepover party. Boys aren't allowed at a girls' sleepover." I was so, so far from understanding that I'm trans at the time that I just didn't have any reply to that. I knew it felt wildly unfair. Like, why? Why is that a rule? But, that was the rule, so I left, just utterly crushed inside for not being allowed to stay. For not being allowed, as I understand it now, to just be "one of the girls" with the rest of them. It's been forty-five years, and I'm still not letting that one go."

This is so beyond pathetic 🤣🤣🤣 oh the childhood trauma of encountering a female space and being told no for the first time in your entitled violent boylife, so you decide to become a skinwalker who intrudes on EVERY intimate female space and destroys all female human rights! Nothing screams "lowlife woman-hater with the potential to murder a feminist one day" like a fifty-year-old manchild who's still throwing testerical fits over that one time he wasn't allowed to intrude on the girls as a child.

( DishonorableTofu )
That comment really disgusted me on another level...

( Earthmoon )
“There is a girl at school I would have literally killed to be”

Why are we supposed to accept these males who regularly talk about how they want to murder us out of jealousy? Plenty of women are jealous of other women and it doesn’t manifest in this kind of talk.

It also couldn’t be clearer that this is a fetish. Sleepovers and trying on clothes? Go do that with some other perverts if you want it so bad. Are those things something that’s portrayed often in porn or something? It really didn’t figure into any girl’s life that I know and it didn’t figure in media much either. I don’t understand where they get it from.

( OwnLyingEyes )
Ahh, so he didn't want A girlhood, he wanted HER girlhood. Or his fetid, fervent imaginings of her girlhood.

Likely porn, and anime, and anime porn. Anime plays up the cute airheaded giggling young girls trope bigtime, generally for male eyes and male desires.

( gncautistic )
If men could cut us open and crawl inside our skins and wear it, they would.

Always be cautious of TIMs. Always.

( mountainwitch )
IRL Skinwalkers

Senpai Noticed Us!

Julie92845 #transphobia #senpai_noticed_us ovarit.com

RE: Ovarit is often featured on FSTDT!

I don't know if I can post directly to it, but FSTDT stands for Fundies Say the Darndest Things. It's a sad shadow of its former self, but it's a collection of posts from religious nuts and right wingers from all over the internet. And Ovarit is often quoted for our anti-trans comments.

The best part is that people can comment on our quotes, and you'll find a lot of good stuff for o/translogic there as well. I've been having fun reading through them and seeing their insane takes, like we are denying reality and substituting our own.

sojourner_truth_ #transphobia ovarit.com

Oh look! Yet another AGP telling women we should be aroused by what makes HIS balls tingle, because that's what being a woman is!

Gotta love the trans logic: Imagining myself as a woman makes me horny > women are threatened with sexual violence by street harassment > I wish someone would desire me enough to catcall and harass me, but no man ever will because I'm a hideous neandrathol looking hun > women are woman-ing wrong if they don't like threats of sexual violence > those ingrates should be so lucky to be sexually harassed > I'm doing women an honor when I sexually harass them!

sojourner_truth_ #transphobia ovarit.com

RE: Trans rights are the ultimate 'First World Problem'

You're right, and I'd add that forcing working class people to trans pander and do your pronoun prayers on top of the real problems they have is abusive. The mental load of living paycheck to paycheck takes a toll. Then comes the narcissistic pervert TIM or the special snowflake enby who gets to flex on this person and make stupid demands, and pitch a screaming fit if they get their pronouns wrong, or if the mentally fragile TIP even thinks they don't fully believe the larp. It's disgusting to me. So classist on top of every other vile characteristic wrong with Gender Identity Extremism.

I'm an expat, which is a more priviliged version of an immigrant. When I botch things speaking the local language, people are very kind and forgiving, and are just happy I'm trying. What about the immigrants who aren't as privileged, who might struggle with normal pronouns in English? Chinese people and Finns for example just literally cannot reliably get pronouns correct, it's too much mental calculus for them because they have only a gender neutral 3rd person pronoun in their native languages. Now add this insanity on top of it, with the threat of having a TIP go psycho and try to get you fired or arrested for getting it wrong. That's nowhere near fair. All to indulge someone's delusions or kinks, you'll put working class people and foreigners through hell on Earth?

God, I hate everything about this bullshit.

Various Commenters #transphobia #conspiracy ovarit.com

Reject the evidence of your eyes

( LunarWolf )
Anyone think that maybe all those law and policy makers are pushing this so hard because it mentally prepares us for authoritarianism? If they can get us to believe that the obvious man standing in front of us is a woman because he says so, then we have lost touch with our most basic ability to trust ourselves and must always turn to outer authority to tell us what to do and what to believe?

( haruspex )
The last time I suggested this, I got called a tin-foil hatter conspiracy theorist 🙃

( kalina )
Yes, at this point it really feels like a social experiment to see how far you can push people.

( bossythecow )
I absolutely do. I think the massive success of trans ideology cannot be solely attributed to sexism. I think there are opportunistic powerful people leveraging this ideology because training people to ignore their instincts, shut up, toe the party line, etc helps consolidate global hegemonies. It also divides and weakens the left and removes a potentially massively powerful source of resistance (women united) from the public sphere. Call me paranoid, but if you know anything about information warfare, it makes a terrifying amount of sense.

( Amareldys )
I sometimes wonder if it is a psyops by the far Right or Russia to discredit the left

( VirginiaWolfberry )
Recommend watching Hypernormalisation by Adam Curtis.

( bossythecow )
I don't think trans ideology was created whole-cloth as a psyop, but I do think it's being exploited and leveraged by those in power who wish to weaken the left, hence the absolute explosion in prevalence in discourse over the past 5-10 years.

( TheactualNovember )
Yes. It's Maoist as fuck. Big pharma and the western medical complex also has a stake in this because transhumanism could be very lucrative.

( TheactualNovember )
I would say that's absolutely correct.

( Amareldys )
Yes. I wonder that all the time. And it makes me seriously question voting democratic... not just because of the harm to women and feminism, but because it seems like they're trying to get us to deny reality across the board.

But the republicans have Trump... and keep rolling back environmental protections...

Various Commenters #transphobia ovarit.com

( actualdyke )
trans people are some of the most vile, cruel, hatefully misogynistic individuals on earth. and no, i'm not making any addendums or exceptions to that statement. almost every single thing I hear from one of them just makes me more and more convinced that there isn't a single good person in this movement bc how can you support ANY of the shit they say and stand for without being morally rotted to the core?

( XX_Power )
For sure every trans male is a huge misogynist. You wouldn't appropriate womanhood if you're not a misogynist, it's really easy as that. Trans females I'd generally say are victims, although some of them are also abusers (looking at the ACLU TIF)

( KissMyOvaries )
Unpopular opinion, but many TIFs slip into the victimizer role pretty quickly. I don’t buy that they are simply victims. Most are narcissistic and don’t see the damage they are doing with their attacks on womanhood that actually make it harder for others to seek out treatment (because they are supporting the whole damn system that doesn’t allow treatment other than affirmation). The narcissism doesn’t end after desisting or detransitioning as they are unable to see the suffering of anyone but detrans people (Watson and Kiera Bell are two prime examples of this, as both still cannot see beyond themselves and those exactly like themselves, it’s COMPLETELY BEYOND THEM the widespread damage that the movement has caused to others). It’s maddening how damn self centered they remain. Like way to go, Kiera, telling others to “just be kind” when there’s a damn reason for our anger, even towards YOU now, simply for saying such crap. And for those who disagree with me, you haven’t been forced to endure continuing dysphoric symptoms because you know there’s no therapeutic help available if you are actually honest with your therapist, in the age of “affirmation ONLY” in therapy.

( Gladys_Kravitz )
I agree with this. For the sake of integrity, I will admit I'm partially biased because of first-hand experiences that were very traumatizing.

Overall what I see is a lot of damaged girls and young women trying to find a way to navigate that damage. Sure, a lot ARE victims who are frantically searching for a way to avoid future assaults. But a growing number of them choose the path of victimizer. Why they do this, I don't know. There are a multitude of reasons in my opinion.


Various Commenters #transphobia #enbyphobia #conspiracy #crackpot #sexist ovarit.com

RE: What do they get out of transing kids?

(mathlover )
Transing kids provides propaganda so they can claim that being "trans" is natural and normal because, after all, kids obviously know from very young ages that they are the opposite sex. It's total nonsense, of course, and it destroys bodies and minds. But the TCult doesn't care; the kids are just collateral damage.

Transing kids also deflects public focus away from the fact that the vast majority of "trans" are autogynephilic heterosexual men trying to force everyone else, especially women, to help them live their fantasy which gets them off sexually.

( notyourfetish )
Big pharma gets money.

Trans Pedos get adult children who can legally consent to thier depravity.

Evil narc parents get woke points, praise, and attention.

( LilianH )
And for a lot of parents they get a straight kid instead of a gay kid. Homophobia does appear to play a part in many parent's decision to trans their children.

(SecondSkin )
Trans peadophiles get adults with children’s bodies and minds in many cases. Non binary is perfect for this. Take hormones to block puberty but not cross sex ones, child brain in a child body still when old enough to consent to sex.

And if children can consent to gender affirmative care, then they can consent to sex- will be the next argument.

(TheLastUBender )
This is a sinister thought, but for adult TiMs especially - or adult AGPs - this is an alternate past fantasy. If I had transitioned in childhood, if I had skipped male puberty, I would now be a more desirable young woman. They're living vicariously through the likes of Jazz Jennings. They really want this alternate past dream to be attainable. They lose interest when the evidence that you don't just grow up into an idealized version of the other sex becomes too obvious to ignore.

( starstuff )
It is probably not possible for us to really understand. The male brain is dysfunctional; a waste byproduct of nature. Just like they'll never understand what it's like to be capable of higher thought, we'll never understand what it's like to be capable of absolute depravity.

(mooncakey )
gender ideology 🤝 pedophilia

XX_Power #transphobia #conspiracy ovarit.com

What a beautiful and not at all regressive thing to teach a child!

"child, that is a bog standard woman/man who's hiding their sex (in most cases, badly) and it is a red flag, especially for the male ones who are often groomers or paedo adjacent. Their cult demands you call them by obfuscating pronouns because only through this prayer will the gender deity save them from bad mental health. So it's basically a modern religion, or cult"

Various Commenters #transphobia ovarit.com

RE: What if the word we suddenly couldn't define anymore was "children"?

( actualdyke )
I know this is a hypothetical at the moment but I don't put it past them for one second that this is their next step. They're already doing everything they can to push the idea that children CAN consent to things being done to their body. They're also trying to convince everyone that children have a fully formed identity by the age of fucking 2, which is clearly an attempt to adultify children and make them seem much smarter and wiser than they actually are. do you see where i’m going with this?

add to that the disturbing amount of TW who identify as little girls and wear diapers and suck on pacifiers... I would say the next logical step in this thinking is to claim that age, much like a gender is a social construct, and since toddlers are smart and wise enough to consent to being trans, and since transage TW are completely valid and stunning, what's to stop a real toddler and a trans toddler from ... i'm not going to finish the sentence but you and I both know what their endgame here is.

( pennygadget )
Agreed. Abolishing the age of sexual consent is the logical next step after legislating that literal toddlers can consent to legally changing their name & gender and that an 8 year old can consent to drugs that will permanently alter their genitals and sexuality.

Also, I suspect the rise in puberty blockers is partially to create a generation of young people who are legally adults but have the minds & bodies of children due to being artificially delayed with drugs.

( XX_Power )
This is the endgame of the transhumanists and paedos and perverts leading this cult. The end goal is both the disappearance of women's rights and the legalization of child abuse and child rape, obviously both of these are deeply connected.

( SecondSkin )
Queer theory has always been about breaking down boundaries. The MAPs have long been pushing their legitimacy and many tq are all for it (or are them). And if trans kids can consent to life altering medical treatment then they can consent to sex can’t they? That’s always been where this was heading, and it’s never been hidden. Drag queens twerking in school and libraries in lingerie-not subtle the agenda being pushed is it?

butchplease , OwnLyingEyes & notyourfetish #transphobia ovarit.com

RE: Detrans woman says she was irresponsibly allowed to have a mastectomy at age 16. Then a TIM called "f terfs" butts in to whine "...B-but I didn't consent to puberty!!"


(butchplease )

Female body surgically and medically abused; male body saved on account of its maleness. That's privilege in action.

( OwnLyingEyes )
FFS. This sounds like repurposed incel whining that they didn't consent to not having sex, trans addition.

Your body doing something it does all on its very own is not the same thing as someone doing something to your body.

( notyourfetish )
These people are completely and totally self-absorbed. They don't care about anyone else at all.

A woman had her body irreversibly mutilated, ffs.

femlez34 , pennygadget & AngelFoodCake #transphobia ovarit.com

🍎 how can you tell

( femlez34 )
Easy, the ones who start hurling slurs and rape threats when you refuse to date them are not the women. The ones talking over everyone else and demanding that everyone walk on eggshells to protect their feelings are not the women.

( pennygadget )
The "cis" women won't be dressing like middle school girls at an anime convention

(AngelFoodCake )
By referring to everyone as a he and see who loses their shit.

Various Commenters #transphobia #sexist ovarit.com

RE: I'm sorry about their experience, but it's still male socialization through and through.

( La_Terfa )

"*I demand someone else baby me and do everything for me, every detrans group is just for you women! Fuck you, men need support and love and obedience.*"

Well, guess what: no. Stop demanding that women do things for you while being openly lazy, moid. The reasons why women transition are completely different from why men transition, anyway. Women transition for reasons that warrant sympathy and support, such as trauma, sexual violence, etc. Males usually transition because of their disgusting fetishes about being a "big tiddy catgirl", which they acquire after viewing grotesque porn.

Sorry that you ruined your body and your life because of a masturbatory fantasy, Kevin, but I'm busy supporting women with genuine problems and hardships. Go cry in your moid cave. Now that you don't have a dick to distract you, maybe you can even do something productive.

( butchplease )
Oh. I just realised. He doesn't ACTUALLY want a male space, he wants to intrude into the female space.

He wants the female space to be centred around HIM.

He wants the female space to be dominated by HIS voice and the voices of other men.

He wants the female space to exist for HIS gratification.

He wants the female space to submit to him.

All men are the same. Fuck him big time.

( IrishTheFrenchie )
And chances are 100% he was EXACTLY like this when he was pretending to be a "woman"- entitled to women's spaces, time, effort, and emotional labor with ZERO effort on his part and ZERO care if he made women uncomfortable.

( hmimperialtortie )
Screw them. They got into this through their porn addictions and hatred of women. Go make your own groups, scrotes. Other blokes do it, they make their Men’s Shed groups for mutual support.

( La_Terfa )
Male "mutual support" is only skin deep though, since they aren't that capable of empathy.

( proudcatlady )
And it’s usually harmful. I genuinely don’t think men should meet up without female chaperones. Get a bunch of men together and something violent is going to happen eventually. These guys will just bond over their misogyny.

Lilith-Fair & SakuraBlossoms #transphobia ovarit.com

(Lilith-Fair )
Pro-Choice TRAs Are Not Your Allies
I've noticed this for quite some time now how TRAs, including woke "mainstream media" completely ignore a lot of women telling them we don't want people using dehumanizing languages to describe us. It is mind-boggling to watch them completely ignore women's complaints. When women point out they're using disgusting dehumanizing languages, they simply ignore women under the auspice of "transphobes". The so-woke Francesca Hong doesn't even bother to delete her tweet when people tell her it defies logic to call women seeing abortions "birthing bodies". WaPo, NPR, NYT, NY Mag, all of them continue to ignore women's complaints and use demeaning dehumanizing languages and languages that erase women like "birthing people", "uterus havers", "people with uteruses", and "pregnant people".

When people tell you who they are, believe them. They may be pro-choice, but have no mercy or compassion for women. These are people see us as breeders and bodies, not full human beings. Biological women who aren't onboard with them are "transphobes". "Transphobes" are not human with rights and deserve to be punched and killed.

For the same reason conservatives against genderwoo are not your allies, pro-choice TRAs are not your allies. They don't care about you.

(SakuraBlossoms )
It's more than just dehumanizing. They are blatantly helping conservatives by refusing to call abortion bans what they are, misogynistic attacks on women.

If someone opts for terminology like "birthing bodies" at a time like this, which requires them to intentionally avoid any mention of the misogyny inherent to policing women's health decisions, they are literally willing to sink all of our reproductive rights to virtue signal to a deluded superminority. Very recently would everyone correctly be calling this a "War on Women," yet now this type of language is largely absent from many major news organizations. If it is more important to them to score woke points than use the concise language necessary to fight for women's rights, they are betraying all women, including the deluded ones who think they are men. I've seen enough of them stumbling over words to know that these people care more about their own self-image than women's rights.

Jessica91 #transphobia ovarit.com

“What defines a woman” is stupid

I’m honestly just so tired of having to repeatedly chew over this stupid statement because no one can ever answer it and whatever you say TRA can twist to use for their own narrative and it ends up with us just being dehumanised and reduced to our wombs.

The issue is that everything a man knows or thinks he understands about a woman’s experience has come from a lifetime of being socialised to believe he has some kind of right over her, even to the point he can mock and dehumanise her further by performatively wearing her clothes and accessing her spaces. His humiliation fetish off the charts because what could be more humiliating than being a woman.

Women themselves can’t even define it because how do you explain something that just is? Anytime we’ve ever attempted to discuss anything that affects us it is mocked or fetishised, even down to things we can’t control like our periods, childbirth and breastfeeding.

Anytime I hear trans “women” discuss femininity it is always from the perspective of a man’s ideal sexualisation of women. It’s hair and makeup, spinny skirts and high heels. They pick up talking points like cat calling with no true understanding of how it feels because they’re never really in danger. How are they able to access (on at least some insurance providers) laser hair removal? How can they possibly feel more Dysphoric than say a woman with PCOS who has to shave her face everyday?

Womanhood isn’t something I get to switch off, it’s mine because it’s my birthright. I am a woman always and the world never mistakes me for anything else. Womanhood isn’t dresses and makeup and giggly sleepovers with your friends. It is raw, wild and untamed, it’s ruthless and unapologetic, it is both fierce and afraid at the same time.

And even in all of that, in all the rawness womanhood boils down to, there will still be a man who would read that and masturbate to it.

Apologies for the rant and my dyslexic mistakes

BlackCirce & proudcatlady #sexist #homophobia ovarit.com

male homosexuality is a trip

I wish it weren’t glorified so much tbh. Male sexuality, for ALL men, is so depraved, dehumanizing, and just wrong. I don’t find it suddenly okay when they go after each other and are completely free to just treat each other like sex toys. It’s bad enough in hetero relationships when there’s a woman to kind of make the man sort of behave most of the time, but gay male sexual behavior really show the full ugliness of male sexuality. Blech.

ProxyMusic #transphobia ovarit.com

RE: Actual numbers on "trans genocide"

When you compare the homicide rates of TIMs "of color" in the US to the homicide rates for black males and Latino males of their same ages, backgrounds, locales etc in the US, you'll find that black males and Latino males who "identify as" women in the USA both have much lower homicide rates than other males in the US like them who do not "identify as" women. Because most people "of color" believe that the TIMs "of color" from their own communities are unhinged, unstable and quick to fly into fits of rage, so they steer clear of these guys and give them wide berth!

Also, when you drill down into the specifics of the cases where the identity of the killer has been determined, what emerges is that these men were mostly killed by their male BFs, roommates, husbands, friends, acquaintances and partners in crime that they were in violent, abusive, exploitive relationships with. Sometimes, the TIMs got killed in altercations that they started.

Various Commenteers #transphobia ovarit.com

“Educate guests on their discomfort”

I started a new job at a gym, and today was watching and going threw orientation videos and pdfs, when of course, gender diversity policy comes up, and of course, TIMs are allowed to use women’s restrooms/showers/locker rooms and TIFs in male’s (though we have a separate gender neutral area). Tells us we have to refer to said guests with their preferred pronouns, etc.

The biggest red flags from this whole field of red flags, was: 1) There is a policy in which if we have a reasonable suspicion that they are lying about their “self identification which is a sincere belief”, and if we need to investigate they can provide proof of their gender identity with ya know, ID, certification, letter from a therapist… oh yeah and if you don’t want to use those things you could also use a letter from a friend or family member. 2) If a guest feels uncomfortable with using the same facilities as a TIP that we do not prohibit said TIP from using their “preferred facilities,” and we should educate the uncomfortable guest on why they feel that way

God forbid we empathize with women who don’t want to see a penis in the fucking shower area. Christ alive I’m tired of woke bullshit

( vulvapeople )
TRAs are incredibly hypocritical regarding "discomfort". They sneer at women's "discomfort" at having perverted men leer at us and expose themselves to us, but everything TRAs demand for themselves is entirely about alleviating (their completely baby-brained, manufactured) "discomfort".

( Radical_Phoenix )
"I am uncomfortable if I don't get everything that I want."

"Lol TERFs, I got the trump card!"

( Hermione )
Erhm… do they have a script or something to “educate” customers with? Because it doesn’t sound like “educating” someone on how to use machines, or times, or hours, or a lot to do with fitness.

I kind of doubt they do have a script, because there is nothing that can actually be said to make this a valid argument or just policy. They’re expecting to get sued, and if they have a standard message, then they are liable for that message. If they have something vague and fuzzy they can just fire the little guy and apologise.


Various Commenters #transphobia ovarit.com

Bad journalism 101: Don't EVER say most/majority when referring to a group or opinion, ESPECIALLY on opinion pieces. Good job, LGBTQIA2+ nation.

( IrishTheFrenchie )
So Rowling isn't allowed to convey the beliefs of actual LGB's who have contacted her, but TRAs are allowed to speak for "most" or "all" members of that very same group who they haven't spoken to or asked what they think?

Got it.

( ArmedFemme )
It's just mansplaining in a different font.

( mathlover )
The "vast majority" of "lesbians" in the "LGBTQ community" aren't lesbians at all. They are heterosexual men or bi/straight women. It's fine to use most/majority when it's true.

( ArmedFemme )
Also, referring to "we've" as in the reader agrees or has seen your perspective is really bad. Like, lose your job bad. This shows how this was never journalism to begin with, it's an echo chamber of agreement between TRA's.

( IrishTheFrenchie )
I’m starting to realize that most of what we think is journalism is actually propaganda.

( KissMyOvaries )
(Many of) The lesbians who are supportive of the movement are the same lesbians who are not on the forefront. They are well settled into long term relationships and have not been pressured to have sex with a penis person who claims to be a woman. These are out of touch women who don’t know the truth of what’s happening. Source: this is what I see with older lesbians I personally know IRL.

Edit. And to clarify, none of these lesbians have overlapping social circles. I know them all in different contexts.

butchplease , homosuperior & Owlchaser #transphobia ovarit.com

RE: Quotes from transwomen

(butchplease )
What upsets me the most is that I'll never be able to hate these lowlife perverts as much as they hate us.

( homosuperior )
Don’t worry babe I can hate them enough for the pair of us!

( butchplease )
Thank you darling

( Owlchaser )
I don't see them as fully 'human', in the sense that they act more like predatory animals obsessed with sex. I think you trade something essential to being human for that level of hatred.

( butchplease )
Oof. I'm inclined to agree.

femlez34 & leaf2950 #transphobia ovarit.com

RE: TIFs declaring they're nothing like "cis men"

( femlez34 )
I mean, TIMs know they aren't us as well, otherwise all these "transbians" would be dating each other. Forcing women to utter lies like TWAW and minimize our own unique experiences under the threat of being labeled a bigot is a power trip for them. They enjoy humiliating women and crossing our boundaries, I think that's a huge draw of the identity for a lot of AGPs.

Unlike TIMs, it seems like most TIFs are homosexuals. They aren't transitioning to invade male spaces and spend time with men, they're transitioning because of internalized homophobia. Straight TIFs have started taking from the TIM playbook and accusing gay men of being transphobes, but it's been pretty weak in comparison to what lesbians deal with, probably because 1) TIFs weren't socialized to feel entitled to the opposite sex, and 2) TIFs know that men can beat the shit out of them, so they're understandably cautious.

I have a close TIF friend that I knew as a lesbian for over a decade before she transitioned. She always made comments that she presented as butch because she assumed she would get more women that way, and she seemed most excited to transition because she thought she would suddenly have a bigger dating pool. I wonder if a lot of TIFs feel that way. Like they don't have anything in common with men and don't want to hang out with men, they just think women prefer man-like people and they view transitioning as a way to appeal to us. Sadly for her, her dating pool is way smaller now. She seems shocked to learn that lesbians don't want to date her, and straight women also don't want to date her. She didn't need to amputate her breasts and go bald just to attract bisexuals..

( leaf2950 )
There's an army of TiF straight women now. Theyre hyper aggressive and even more homophobic than TiMs. TiM's use misogyny and rape threats, these TiFs use homophobia and dehumanization. They try and encourage everyone to spread it. It has a "it's ok! im a gay trans man! i encourage everyone to use the word fggt! it's normal and fun!".

Theyre too afraid of going after gay adult men so they like to invade spaces for vulnerable, gay young boys to attack them. There's quite a bit of an age difference between the adult TiFs and the young gay boys.


Various Commenters #transphobia ovarit.com

RE: Titty skittles WILL make you a softer, fluffier lesbian.

( ProxyMusic )
Ugh, the idea that men imitating/impersonating women = intimacy and closeness with women is such AGP thinking. Men believing that taking exogenous E - and getting "gender euphoric" from how soft, fluffy, and butterfly-like they feel - makes them somehow "connect with" and become "more intimate with" women reminds me of Buffalo Bill making his "woman suit" in "The Silence of The Lambs." Wearing women's skin to "connect with" them and become "more intimate" with them. Blech.

( TheLastUBender )
I don't know why this is so much creepier than regular male attraction to women, but this skin walker shit is upsetting. They single white female the women in their lives.

( Hollyhock )
While straight male attraction can certainly include objectification of women, this is a pathological obsession w/ themselves - they are narcissists using us as suits. Also, straight male attraction can include real intimacy and closeness - I'm sure an AGP has no ability to experience that - ever, which is why they don't date each other.

( lucrecia )
Where are these warm fluffy feelings for women who disagree with them?

( Samster )
Right? When they're turned down by a lesbian, do they have "warm, fluffy feelings" or do they immediately threaten her with rape?

Various Commenters #transphobia ovarit.com

This is the level of stupidity we are dealing with 😶


( legopants )
Then what makes you trans? What could it possibly be if not based on gender stereotypes and roles? You can't know what it "feels" like to be a man or woman biologically when you're not. there's not a single trans person alive I've asked how they knew that doesn't start wih "as a kid, I liked playing with (sterotypes) instead of (sterotypes)" LMFAO

THE ENTIRE DIAGNOSIS PROCESS is a form asking which gender sterotypes you more relate too for fucks sake LOL

( OwnLyingEyes )
As though the moment a child expresses a HINT of gender nonconformity, these ghouls aren't tripping over each other to start insinuating that he/she should be placed on blockers. As though that isn't EXACTLY the criteria that Tavistock used to approve "treatment."

( TheQuantumBoson )
This is DARVO, plain and simple. They're denying that they think a little boy who wants to wear a dress needs to be transed (which they do think), they go on to attack Rowling as "representing hate and ignorance", and then blame her for doing exactly what they're doing.

( RumHam )
I really just can't with the gaslighting. Lol We don't say that! No trans person thinks this way! Go look at literally any of their subs. They're obsessed with stereotypes and clothing, and anyone who's the slightest bit gnc gets called an egg.

( Riothamus )
Anyone who's willing to lie about something as blatantly obvious as their sex will lie about ANYTHING and EVERYTHING whenever it suits their purposes. We cannot expect any honesty or consistency from these people.

Various Commenters #transphobia ovarit.com

RE: When they say the majority of trans people never regret transitioning this is who they mean. These are the men we're sacrificing young girls for.

( SakuraBlossoms )
When a trans person doesn't regret transitioning, it's because their mental health issues were never treated. Same with the woman who blinded herself and was happy after. Same with people suffering from anorexia; they don't regret being dangerously underweight and instead want to be thinner, until the mental disorder and the distorted thinking it causes is properly treated.

It's so obvious that transitioning (physical) doesn't treat gender dysphoria (mental), such as with the despair that comes if someone "mistakes" them for a member of their sex. Or I would imagine if a guy like this just looked in the mirror. Although some of the men never had gender dysphoria to begin with and just did it for the coom.

(nopenottoday )
He won't be laughing when his bones are deteriorating and he's got some estrogen induced cancer

( Tortoisemouse )
There are so many parallels with anorexia.

( Every-Man-His-Own-Football )
Before ROGD, the majority of "trans people" were fetishistic transvestites / autogynephiles. They usually don't regret transitioning because it is sexually motivated. Their main regret is not transitioning earlier as they are erotically obsessed with "passing". They advocated for childhood transitioning aka. medical abuse of children, since they project their fetish onto gender-nonconforming children. In addition, most transvestites have a sissification / forced feminization fetish as well, i.e. they get aroused by the humiliation of a boy forced into stereotypically feminine dress, behavior, etc. And some of them are pedophiles.

hufflepuff-poet & Jessica91 #transphobia ovarit.com

( hufflepuff-poet )

I'm not going to say the TRA grooming is abuse on par with CSA or other things that evil people do to children but

I think TRA grooming is on par with CSA and should be punished and ostracized and safeguarded against just like we safeguard against CSA. The movement promotes kid's dissociating from their bodies, especially their genitalia, isolates them from adults who want to protect them, and tells kid's that they only have one path to happiness and anything less will leave them suicidal; that their lives are only worth something if they can conform to the cult.

Just because TRAs aren't actively molesting and raping kids doesn't mean their actions don't have the same impact on kids. They are grooming kids for a lifetime of pain and suffering and disconnection from their sexual selves and prepping them for actual predators to easily take advantage of them. This is a predator rights movement and their main targets are children and women, especially lesbians.

( Jessica91 )
Also how many of us are in these TRA spaces?

Maybe I’m an old lady but back in the days of MySpace we were seriously warned about predators on the internet. There were guides and that to help us spot them. But all that seems out the window now and kids seem to have free reign access to the internet and adults free reign access to the kids.

I was so dumb back then I didn’t even know how to delete my internet history.

But these people are accessing kids and grooming them with their propaganda, if they’re doing that then it’s not at all out of the realm of possibility there’s sexual abusive involved especially with the heavy focus that TRA has on genitals and dysphoria. The way that they go about grooming both adults and children into trans ideology, it’s not far removed that they’d also be convincing children to send photographs, have web chats, sending extreme pornography or child pornography to them…

hmimperialtortie & TheQuantumBoson #transphobia ovarit.com

RE: Wikipedia censors list of trans-identified serial killers

( hmimperialtortie )
They’ll probably put them back as “female serial killers” soon.

( TheQuantumBoson )
I know, and then the MRAs will be all over it for their anti-feminist propaganda 🙄. Trans ideology is one of patriarchy's deadliest tools.

( hmimperialtortie )
TRAs are the more successful iteration of MRAs.

Various TERFs #transphobia ovarit.com

RE: What trans ‘influencers’ post vs reality


Oh lord. My stepson told me something like "most of the time you can't even tell who's trans" and I audibly snorted. He absolutely must believe the bottom pictures are real. Lies on lies on lies.

These are the same people?! Holy shit in the top pics they look like jocks who decided to “dress as the cheerleaders” for Halloween as a sexist joke…

Another reason this stuff can only make sense long-term online - the light of day exposes the truth. When you're out in the real-world, being seen from all sorts of angles, and crucially moving around in all kinds of natural light, these camera tricks stop working. I've often been somewhat convinced by someone, only for them to move or see a clip of them walking and it all become clear.

Holy crap.

Someone should start a collection of these. Maybe me, who knows.

Let's make a circle o/TIMstagramReality

Various Commenters #sexist ovarit.com

B-b-but what about men??

( La_Terfa )

Men are demonized as these cruel creatures with no feelings.

Yes. Good.

( Gladys_Kravitz )
Suddenly telling the truth is seen as being "demonized."

( SecondSkin )
This is why equality is a useless term. Feminism was supposed to be about women’s liberation from patriarchal dominance and male violence. It wasn’t about equality, it was about freedom from the hierarchy that keeps us the objects of male entitlement.

Men as a class have all the power. They can fix whatever ‘equality’ problems they have. They have every opportunity and all the power to fix themselves. ‘Gender equality’ needs redefined back to what it was always intended to be about -liberating women, and NOTHING about men.

( assigned_terf_at_birth )
Well said, sister.



Various Commenters #transphobia ovarit.com

RE: USAToday names "Rachel" Levine as one of it's Women of the Year

( YoureNotaClownfish )
I really want the entire list to be TIMs and maybe someone will actually peak.

An honestly, if "woman" now means feeling deeply identified with society's idea of womanhood, let them have it.

I am ready to just have a new word: Gynes, Ovanoids, I really don't care.

( OwnLyingEyes )
The issue is they immediately steal any new word created for us, because what they can't stand is us having any words to differentiate us; every boundary we put up must be obliterated. Remember seeing a TIM tantruming recently over how women are now using "AFAB" in things like personal ads searching for roommates, you know, HOW DARE THEY, THEY'RE STILL EXCLUDING ME AND REGROUPING ELSEWHERE AND I'M STILL NOT INVITED RARRGH.

That, and all of our legal rights and protections and such written into law are stored behind the word "woman;" which up until recently meant "adult human female" without confusion; I don't relish having to fight for those same things year after year under whatever the word of the day is for us.

( Iridescence )
Yeah, exactly. They say they're not erasing sex, but every time anybody tries to acknowledge it, it's eXcLuSioN.

( bellatrixbells )
Not to mention that it will be impossible to recognize women a few years from now when people read texts and news articles of our days. How many words would there be to know ?

I bet they probably even whine that they're not being called foids by incels.

Ishahchai #transphobia ovarit.com

RE: Trans mod on a sub against religious fundamentalists ironically encourages reporting ‘TERFs’ for their gender heresy.

There was a situation with my takeout order, so I’ve got some time on my hands.

Lesbian = female homosexual: it may look innocent at first but it is how terfs communicate that they believe that lesbians can only be attracted to their same sex.

Yes, female homosexual is exactly what lesbian means. A female attracted to another female. Full points.

Biological sex/biologically male or female: another term to demean and reduce trans people to their sex instead of their gender identity. Trans people already know the difference between sex and gender, but terfs cannot tell the difference.The appropriate terms instead to use are: AMAB or AFAB (assigned male or female at birth) if you really have to talk about the trans person's past.

Emphasis mine. No, trans people equate sex and gender all the fucking time. So do many people, as gender became a euphemism for sex. Radfems believe in sex, because biology is a terf, and know that gender is a social construct.

Gender critical/gender abolitionist: may sound good at first but this is primarily used to criticize trans people that do not "pass", and that all people should be referred to by their sex.

Well, yes, all people should be referred to by their sex. Because sex is real. No trans person passes because changing sex is not possible.

TRA: trans rights activist. Used derogatorily by terfs to refer to 'big scary transgenders trying to bully them'

I mean, it’s more because trans rights activism is a direct offshoot of mens rights activism. But partial credit for accidentally acknowledging that TRAs are indeed big bullies.

Getting really angry at being called 'cis' or angry at cis in general: This one, to me, is a no brainer. If someone insists on being called a woman or a man and that 'cis' is bad, they're a terf.

This is great, because I’ve seen a lot of libfems express discomfort at the word cis, even as they pad that expression of discomfort with subservient praise, TWAW, they have it soooo much harder. But yeah, go on and call your supporters terfs. I love a self-fulfilling prophecy.


Various Commenters #transphobia #sexist ovarit.com

RE: I'm sorry about their experience, but it's still male socialization through and through.

( sojourner_truth_ )
See, this is why I'm not of the belief that detransitioners will be the cavalry that comes running in to save the day. The women sometimes have interesting things to say, but nobody will listen to them because they are women. And the men? No great shakes. Look at this whiny loser, moaning that women have something that he wants, and stamping his feet that he can't just instantly have it too, implying that the women owe it to him. Incel logic 101. Maybe he stopped IDing as trans but he is still the same as he was before he transed himself. It starts with entitlement and misogyny, and that's how it continues. Waah waah waah, how dare women have something! I want it I want it I want it! No, I don't want to lift a finger, omg that's what women are for!!!!! Ugh. Disgusting scrote.

( crodish )
Yeah, I'm wary of putting detransitioners on a pedestal, or thinking they'll be the next generation to break down barriers, etc. A lot of them still see feminists as their Big Bad, even if some of them are female. The most we can do is support them but not expect the same to be given to us. As is the usual for being women...

( sojourner_truth_ )
You're right; they are quick to paint us as the problem!

Plus many of them were mentally ill and unstable to start with, which is why the gender cult was able to suck them in. Those pre-existing mental illnesses didn't disappear in a puff of smoke once they saw through the trans delusion, as many of Isaac's supporters are seeing.

In a political fight for women's rights and children's safety, I want allies I can count on to not lose the plot at every errant breeze. So many detransitioners go back and forth multiple times. It's like quitting an addiction or leaving an abusive partner. It may take 6 or 7 attempts to break free for good.

( La_Terfa )
This is why I have zero sympathy for detrans moids, and I actually believe that detrans women should actively keep them out of their support groups. There's no fixing these gross broken moids.

various commenters #sexist #transphobia ovarit.com

RE: I'm sorry about their experience, but it's still male socialization through and through.

( crodish )
Came across this and wanted to throw a table. It is exactly this. EXACTLY THIS that happens, over and over and over again, whether it's "cis" men, or trans-identified men, or detrans men. It's always men looking to women to provide emotional labor for them, it's always men who are unwilling to put in the work, it's always men who want to take over women's hard earned spaces because they won't do it themselves. Never for themselves and never for each other. And it's still always women's fault somehow.

Lots of detrans tweets also talking about how much women hate detrans men. 1) it's not specifically detrans men, it's ALL men, so don't take it personally, because we sure as hell didn't become warmer to you during your identity as a woman 2) you've proven our point over and over.

Detrans women have spaces because the women bothered to make an effort. They bothered even if they didn't feel suited for it. They stepped up.

Men need to step up for themselves if they want their own spaces. Be willing to do the work for the change that you want for yourself!

Edit: now I'm half worried that "detrans man" is going to be the new oppressed minority that "transwoman" currently is, and women become unable to say anything against them because they're already so damaged and fragile. It's the same fucking cycle repackaged in different words urgh

( carbon0va )

Lots of detrans tweets also talking about how much women hate detrans men.

These are selfish men who've demonstrated they're perfectly ok with exploiting women, invading our spaces, abusing us online, etc for their own gratification. Why would we like them? These people don't change, they just change tactics.

( SCP353 )
They won't. Similar to how men complain that they have no male shelters for domestic abuse but actually don't give a shit about those men/don't actually want to form communities. They just want to blame women for getting all the attention. It's all in bad faith.

( La_Terfa )
Lol, shelters for men aren't even needed. Cases of women being genuinely violent are vanishingly rare and moids always have the financial means to escape these hypothetical scenarios and protect themselves.