Was on the fence whether to say anything now, but well… I figured it’s better to say it in this case than to stay quiet.
First off, I don’t think either Timjer or Bastethotep did anything horrible by saying what they did. God knows we see some awful crap daily on this site, and this isn’t on that level.
However
Sexism, objectification and shitty behavior in general are not something that’s either FSTDT-level or non-existent. They’re very much a spectrum, from the very mild, faux-pas-like moments, all the way to incel levels.
Any one of us can have a moment where we say something we don’t realize is a bit, well, problematic. Likewise, any one of us can have views and behaviors which are mildly problematic. Anyone.
That does not mean that we are sexists or racists or whatever, especially FSTDT-level. But just because you’re not, say, a capital-B Bigot, doesn’t mean that you’re pure good and beyond criticism.
I hope that much is clear to everyone here.
Now, concretely… I hope you’ll forgive me for naming some names, but there’s no way it can be avoided here I think. This entire argument has been deeply personal, touching several people in a way that hurt them personally based on their prior life experiences, insecurities and traumas. Thus the escalation.
Regarding Bast’s list, as far as I can tell it hasn’t been edited - meaning that it does not contain physical attributes {it has, and it did}. It’s a list of personality traits (other than perhaps the ‘non-smoker’ part, which I don’t find problematic, by the way. Sorry Smilla, it’s not that I mind smokers as such, merely that I can poorly stand cigarette smoke, and I think that’s not something we should hold against people).
I don’t see all that much of a problem with listing favorite personality traits personally, but some of the gals here do, because it reminds them of such lists that were basically levied against them previously in their lives, and which are all too usually used in a sexist and body-shaming manner (and do include physical attributes). So perhaps Bast ended up being something of a collateral damage here, though I’m certainly not anyone who can state that with authority here (not trying to mansplain, I hope this doesn’t come off as that, but if it does, please let me know!).
In addition to that, after the initial bewilderment, Bast has been quite conciliatory and open to discussion as far as I have seen. Thus, I don’t have much more to say on that subject. Water under the bridge.
Now, there’s some difference between that and Timjer’s initial list, maybe. And there’s a great deal of difference with how Timjer responded to being called out. Where to even begin?
This:
*Pearly white & straight teeth
*Hygienic & well-groomed (& shaven & waxed, except for “down there”, that just needs trimming)
*Tall (+/-1.8m) & leggy
*Athletic (preferably good stamina over muscles, but girl-abs are welcome too)
*Preferably black or blonde hair over brown
*Preferably longer hair
*Curvy; wide hips, narrow waist (but not emaciated), wide shoulders, and VERY buxom (G/H-cup at minimum, if I can push my luck)
…is, to start with, very obviously going into what Timjer considers physical perfection. It’s also rather detailed (even includes some measurements), which… well… can sure suggest a certain amount of objectification (note for Timjer: don’t read this as “Timjer is clearly objectifying here!” - this is not an accusation, I’m talking how words and actions can be interpreted.).
Now, Timjer, you called yourself a feminist. If that goes any deeper than “Oh, I believe women should have the same legal rights as men”, then that means you’re surely aware that women and men still live in different worlds, so to speak.
For example:
Are men as regularly and callously objectified as women are?
Do men face quite as much sexual harassment and violence as women do?
Aren’t there certain types of low-level sexual harassment and demeaning which men hardly ever face and women regularly do? (e.g. catcalling)
If you answered those questions the same way most of us here likely would, then it shouldn’t be difficult for you to understand that women tend to look at such things differently than men. Things that men hardly even think about or might consider innocent banter… are sometimes things that will have a woman freeze up for a moment and try to remember where she put the pepper spray, just in case, because she’s already heard this sort of thing many times and it was often a prelude to trouble. Meanwhile, the man may have very well said that innocently, perhaps even thinking he was complimenting her.
This hardly ever works the same in the other direction. Not because women are too sensitive or men have thicker skin, but because generally speaking, men don’t treat women the same as women treat men (note: I’m including the fact that individual men and women act in very different and even opposite ways to other people of the same gender).
So… following that thought, what you see as innocent banter might make other people (in this case the present women) seriously uncomfortable, because people who said things like what you did regularly tended to be the sort of people who at best didn’t care how their actions affected these women, or at worst wanted to demean them and make them afraid or feel shitty.
I know it feels unjust and unfair. And it is unfair, perhaps. But with the way the world is, it’s also pretty much inevitable. People who repeatedly got hurt won’t treat you with wide-open eyes and assume you have the best of intentions; if you say or do something akin to the things that were used to hurt them, they’ll likely err on the side of caution.
And it wasn’t just one woman’s overreaction or accusing you of wild things.
It was not one, not two, but three women in this same thread all pointing out the same thing to you, saying that it made them uncomfortable (and two of them did so with the utmost politeness). And it seems it took you quite a while for that to sink in.
Smilla was not nice about it, she was direct. I’ll quote one thing she said that triggered you in particular:
You guys realize you’re exhibiting sexist behavior yourselves with these “perfect woman criteria”, right? Just because some other people are absolute shits doesn’t mean it’s ok to behave the same way in a lesser degree.
Which you took as her directly comparing you to incels… then strengthened that to her “saying you’re as bad as an incel”, “portraying you as incels”, then once again “comparing you to a sexist, objectifying incel”, finally escalating to her “thinking you are a sexist incel” and a monster.
Five. Times.
By the way, if you read what she said again, you might see that at no point did she call you an incel or say she thinks you’re (like) one.
In fact, she took pains to say that you engaged in sexist behavior, and that this doesn’t mean you’re a sexist.
Remember, we can all be assholes at times. We’re not perfect. That doesn’t mean that ‘asshole’ is our defining characteristic or that we’re horrible monsters. It just means that sometimes we might do things that aren’t wholesome, intentionally or not.
Oh, and among other things, you went and said it.
This:
I have nothing against feminism, far from it, but people like you take it waaaaaay too far and therefore give all feminists a bad name.
Now, where have we heard things like that?
Timjer, I’m glad you came round to at least realizing that what you said can be unintentionally hurtful and apologized (even if not to Smilla). But I’ll be frank: I thought you were better than this, than the behavior you exhibited in this thread. Up until the final few posts, I felt my respect for you rapidly dropping, and I was increasingly thinking “What. The. Hell. Is your problem??”
You behaved like the triggered snowflake you seem to be accusing Smilla of being; for a while you refused to even countenance the possibility you may have done something not good; you borderline shouted and stomped your feet (“I didn’t objectify ANYONE!”); you pulled out the “I, a man, am a good feminist unlike you, feminazi woman!” schtick (not exact words ofc, but that’s the subtext in a sense); and you generally acted like someone with incredibly thin skin.
But why am I not criticizing Smilla, you might ask?
Well, I will say that she was very direct and called your behavior out even though you didn’t mean to do harm, and did so in a way that wasn’t likely to go over well. But all she did was point out what she (and others, as it turns out) found problematic about your behavior. You could have responded with grace, you could have disagreed with her but calmly asked her to elaborate, you could have disagreed with her like an adult. But you didn’t.
Note how Bastethotep responded to Smilla, and how she responded in kind. He politely disagreed with her assessment, and… she was ok with that. And that’s where it ended. There was no need for all this drama that you whipped up (yes, you specifically).
And Timjer, nobody thinks you having preferences, even physical ones, is bad. Everyone does (except maybe demisexual and asexual people). The issue isn’t that you have them, it’s where and how you say it. There’s a time and place for various things, which doesn’t mean that people’s free speech is being vilely suppressed — just that it’s good to keep some things for more private settings where you’re together with people you know. Then these people can be certain of your intentions, and that if you — for instance — say something edgy, that you really don’t mean anything bad or callous by it.
This comment section, conversely, isn’t quite such a space; we’re mostly strangers here, and assumption of good intent doesn’t necessarily hold true. What you can assume is that there are people here who went through some shit and have open wounds and a certain level of distrust as a result. This doesn’t mean you have to weigh every word you say. Just… try to be a bit more mindful, ok? And I know this can be hell for people on the spectrum (which you are IIRC), so I’m aware that this isn’t necessarily an easy feat to fulfill. But a more calm and inquisitive manner might work, at least.
If you’re still reading this, there’s one more thing I’d like to touch upon.
You being rubbed the wrong way by someone like Smilla is hardly unusual. In fact, it’s commonly seen on the internet on a daily basis.
Smilla has the approach many social justice-type people do. Many other people find it condescending and incredibly irritating.
On the one hand, I doubt the efficacy of such callouts for that reason.
On the other hand, I certainly do understand the frustration of people from minorities and (more or less) marginalized groups. After you keep seeing the same shit that hits your people over and over again, you start to lose patience and don’t feel like being kind to people whom you perceive as acting in a shitty manner. It also seems worthwhile to call out people that way, because even if they respond poorly, at least you show that their behavior has opposition, which helps people hurt by the same thing you are and shows them that they’re not alone.
Of course, social justice advocates can go overboard with that, too. But I don’t think Smilla did. The way she spoke did come off as smug at times. She also did not give you quarter much. But neither did you give any to her — in fact, you were a lot more hostile.
But if this offended you, Timjer, and given the sort of things you said while you were ranting, I’m not sure you’re quite as “enlightened” (for lack of a better word) as you may think. People who have been through a lot of shit often won’t mince words with you, and if you think they’ll voice their issues with you in a tone of utmost respect and kindness, well… it’s more likely you’ll stay in a bubble of blissful self-assuredness that you’re great and wonderful, while in fact you may have some views and attitudes that you may have to work on.
Like in a situation when most representatives of the group you are talking about in a thread tell you “dude, this isn’t good” about the same thing. That seems like a good moment to do a double take and think good about what might be the problem, rather than digging your heels in and borderline claiming that you’re being oppressed and persecuted by the woke PC police.
Sorry to end on a harsh note, but I hope this is the last I’ll be seeing of this side of you.
P.S. You objected to Smilla assuming you were male. But like Smilla said, that was no assumption — I distinctly remember you mentioning that fact in your previous comments on this site, multiple times even. So you might as well assume it’s common knowledge at this point.