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Conservative Theologians #fundie patheos.com

Pope Paul VI stunned the world on July 29, 1968, when he reaffirmed the church’s ban on modern contraceptives in Humanae Vitae (Of Human Life). He declared that “each and every marital act must of necessity retain its intrinsic relationship to the procreation of human life.”

The pope had deferred to a dissenting minority report prepared by four conservative theologian priests on the commission that maintained contraception was a “sin against nature” and a “shameful and intrinsically vicious act.” These theologians said that church could not change its teaching on birth control because admitting the church had been wrong about the issue for centuries would raise questions about the moral authority of the pope, especially on matters of sexuality, and the belief that the Holy Spirit guided his pronouncements. “The Church cannot change her answer because this answer is true. — It is true because the Catholic Church, instituted by Christ — could not have so wrongly erred during all those centuries of its history,” they wrote.

As one of the conservative theologians famously asked one of the female members of the commission, what would happen to “the millions we have sent to hell” for using contraception if the teaching were suddenly changed?

Jeromimous #racist patheos.com

What part of "Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery" don't you understand, Mark Shea? That is the commandment against race mixing. Racism is not a sin, it's a Commandment! You, sir, are the heretic.

Randy Orton #fundie patheos.com

Taking shit from dishonorably discharged WWE Wrestler Randy Orton

Shortly after the public conversation, I had an encounter with another recruit. I am not sure if you watch WWE wrestling. I don’t but if you do, you might recognize the name Randy Orton. He was one of the squad leaders in my platoon.

I am a rather small guy, even more so back then. I was probably about 5’8? and 120 pounds. Double Rats recruit FTW [JG: this means he got to eat twice as much food, civilians.]

I was doing pull-ups on the quarterdeck during some free time. When I hopped off the bar, I turned to find this huge future wrestler glaring and blocking my path in an imposing manner.

He uttered the words, “You better believe in jesus, boy.” I was shocked. I wasn’t sure if he was trying to make a rational argument, or if he was trying to bully me into Christianity. Whatever it was I decided it was the worst attempt I had ever faced. Instead of engaging him, I just laughed in his face until he walked away.

After boot I hear he received a Dishonorable Discharge for going UA and telling his CO to fuck off. [JG: I confirmed the discharge. He received a short prison sentence for his crimes in the Marine Corps followed by a bad conduct dishonorable discharge.]

Adrian Warnock #fundie patheos.com

[About the movie God's Not Dead:]

One character unceremoniously finishes a relationship because his girlfriend is diagnosed with terminal cancer. Admittedly few people would be that selfish, yet if Darwinian evolution is the only explanation for our existence surely he is just acting in a consistent way with his purpose of propagating his genes with a healthier woman?

Antiphon411 #fundie patheos.com

Your comment illustrates my argument nicely. The error of religious liberty is incompatible with Christian Faith. It is a Liberal idea and ultimately atheistic because it fosters religious indifferentism. I am not here to convert you, but rather to point out to my Christian friends that they should see religious liberty for what it is.

Incidentally, you should know by looking at the world around you that the removal of religious things from the public forum is an infringement on the religious rights of religious people. Most religions I know of are total world-views. (A possible exception would be Protestantism, which has always seemed a little half-assed to me.) Just as the Mahometan wants his state run according to sharia law, so too the Christian should want his whole society permeated with the Faith: God should be a beginning and end to all things.

Religious liberty is not a grown-up idea. To suggest that anyone, apart from milquetoast western Christians would allow themselves to be limited by the notion of religious liberty is absurd. There are really only two appropriate responses to a given religion: embrace it or suppress it.

But let us be honest, the latter is precisely what your ilk is aiming at with its commitment to religious liberty! If we cannot be friends, let us at least be honest enemies. I shall not lie to you and you will not--I hope--lie to me.

Dr. Steve Brule #fundie patheos.com

Remember that evolution is still a theory. It is not scientific fact. Currently macro evolution is a complete lie, but in the next x amount of years it could be proven correct. Micro evolution has better overall evidence. One discovery can change the world and the "scientific fact" that we currently believe. Once the earth was considered flat.

Bristol Palin #fundie patheos.com

If you aren’t paying attention to Texas politics right now, join the crowd. But the Democrat running for governor is just so awful you have to pay attention. Wendy Davis rose to the top of everyone’s minds because her story was so compelling. This CNN headline summed it up:

CNN: Wendy Davis: From Teen Mom to Harvard Law to Famous Filibuster

Turns out, she lied about much of her “pulling herself up by her own bootstraps” story. Actually, she found a man to marry her, pay her way through college, and then through Harvard Law School. The day after he paid the last bill, she left him. By the way, she left her kids too. She said, “it’s not a good time for me right now” to be a parent.

Is everyone paying attention? This woman is the hero of the Left? A woman whose ambition and ego were so big she couldn’t have both a career and kids at the same time.

Gosh, children are sooo inconvenient, huh? I’m glad my mother didn’t put motherhood on the shelf when she was elected to City Council, then became our mayor, then Governor. Oh sorry – I mentioned my mother— Have you liberals gone into a tail spin of hate already? Did I lose you?

I know you would rather think about Wendy Davis, so let’s get back to her. She’s more your type of woman. She left her kid, husband, made it into a false “made-for-tv-movie-type-tale” and then demanded that Texans have the right to kill babies. That’s the woman you libs can really get behind!

Let me be clear. I think it’d be so nice to have a husband take care of me, and my son, so I could attend school. (Any school — let alone, Harvard!)

But the way Wendy Davis did it – by getting married and leaving him as soon as the ink dried on his last check – is downright pathetic.

Plus, it perfectly shows that – no matter what they say – feminism is a farce. If you truly believe in strong, independent women, you’d be a conservative.

Betty Scott #fundie patheos.com

I just think scientist change the rules to suit their errors first it's the big bang theory now I have Nemo telling me "matter stretched" to make our world.... Matter cannot stretch enough to make the universe, I just believe it's harder to believe in evolution than creation.... I just don't buy it things just don't change for millions of years and just stop changing... and if we did come from apes why are they still here.... The other problem is.... I do believe that there was indeed a BANG A VERY BIG BANG.... when GOD speaks I believe it was loud WHEN MATTER OBEYED!!!!!! A-MEN Thank you God for loving us and I pray for all those who do not believe in you and especially for those who believe and preached your word and strayed from you.... They no not what they do Lord A-MEN

danallison #racist patheos.com

If Phil [Robertson] ever actually harms a black person, get back to me. THAT would be racism, maybe. Until then, if you can't defend the man's right to free speech, you're pretty worthless as an American.

Bryan Fischer #fundie patheos.com

Here is where the definition of the word religion becomes absolutely critical. If by ‘religion’ the founders meant Christianity, then you can ban a monument to Satan, because that is not Christianity. But if by ‘religion’ you mean anything, any system of belief, whether it’s Christian or not, then you have no way, you have no way to tell the Satanists, ‘You can’t have your monument.

Joe Rutherford #fundie patheos.com

My wife and I are painting our house, replacing carpet, etc. What we are doing is not intervention. It is our house. If we go next door and tell the owner of that house that we are going to make some changes to his house, that would be an effort of intervention. We do not have the right to do that. Since God is who He is. Since God made the universe and owns it, He is not practicing intervention by what He does. God is ruling with His own power, by His own will, over what is His. If God made turtles on one island with long necks and turtles on another island with short necks, then great. But leave it up to Darwin to come to the wrong conclusion. Observe, then try to figure it all out... always gets people into trouble. Therefore putting trust in the scientific method is foolishness. "What does it profit a man if He gain the whole world, but loose his soul to hell?" (Christ Jesus, co-creator of the universe).

Bob Thorpe et al. #fundie patheos.com

A group of Arizona politicians — all Republicans, of course — have proposed a law (House Bill 2467) requiring public high school students to recite the following oath in order to graduate:

"I, _______, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge these duties; So help me God."

To quote Comedy Central’s Ilya Gerner: “Nothing says ‘I take this obligation freely’ quite like a state law that withholds your diploma unless you swear an oath.”

Kevin Bondelli adds:

"— graduating high school is not the same thing as voluntarily accepting the responsibility of a public office or admission to the legal bar. A high school diploma is, with extremely few exceptions, required to have a chance to live above the poverty level. It is the culmination of an education that up until that point was compulsory."

It’s bad enough the Republicans are demanding loyalty of the kind normally reserved for members of Congress and beyond — but there’s also no way I would say those last four words, and the current text of the legislation does not allow for any alternatives.

In other words, if this bill were to become a law, atheists would either not be allowed to graduate— or they would be forced to lie so they could graduate. Neither option is acceptable.

Mike Sunnucks of the Phoenix Business Journal points out another problem:

"The Arizona bill could also face legal challenges if it is approved."

"Jehovah’s witnesses, some Muslims and pacifist Quakers have in the past challenged loyalty oaths imposed by the federal government and other agencies, saying they conflict with their beliefs and religious professions. Similarly, some Arizona students could challenge the proposed high school oath as a violation of their religious liberties and freedom of expression."

This bill is the work of Representatives Bob Thorpe, Sonny Borrelli, Carl Seel, T.J. Shope, Jeff Dial, David Livingston, Chester Crandell, and Steve Smith.

Smith and Shope have also introduced legislation demanding that all students in grades 1-12 recite the Pledge of Allegiance (with “Under God”) every day. At least in that bill, students can get out of saying it with their parents’ permission.

No such exemption exists in the Loyalty Oath.

Keep in mind that in both cases, the bills do not help children get a better education. That’s the saddest thing about all this. The people who are in charge of fixing the education crisis are proposing solutions that would only waste more classroom time and exclude many students from graduating despite fulfilling their current requirements.

***Update***: While the bill still includes the God language, Think Progress reports that it may be revised:

"As written, the bill does not exempt atheist students or those of different faiths from the requirement, though Thorpe has pledged to amend the measure. “In that we had a tight deadline for dropping our bills, I was not able to update the language,” he wrote in an e-mail to the Arizona Republic. “Even though I want to encourage all of our students to understand and respect our Constitution and constitutional form of government, I do not want to create a requirement that students or parents may feel uncomfortable with.”

So it’s possible alternative language may solve the atheist problem, but *requiring* students to take the oath still poses a host of constitutional issues. Another option would be to make the oath optional, but that would make this bill completely irrelevant.

Which would be fine by me.

(Thanks to Brian for the link)

Steve Willy #fundie patheos.com

Wow, this comment really opened my eyes. I mean, this is mind blowing stuff. You make some powerful points, except ... let’s put the Hitchens-Dawkins Kool-Aid down for a while and look at reality: Kalaam Cosmological Argument, the Argument from Reason, Fine Tuning of Universal Constants, irreducible biological complexity, the argument from morality—. Your entire world view lies shattered at your feet. If you truly honor the gods of reason and critical thinking half as much as you claim, you would plant your face firmly into your hand, step away from the device, find a quiet place, and rethink your life. Indeed, why are you even bothering to comment at all? No atheistic position can be taken seriously until two threshold questions can coherently be answered. 1. Why is the atheist even engaging in the debate. On atheism, there is no objective basis for even ascertaining truth; there is no immaterial aspect to consciousness and all mental states are material. Therefore, everyone who ever lived and ever will live could be wrong about a thing. By what standard would that ever be ascertained on atheism? Also if atheism is true, there is no objective meaning to existence and no objective standard by which the ‘rational’ world view of atheism is more desirable, morally or otherwise, to the ‘irrational’ beliefs of religion. Ridding the world of the scourge of religion, so that humanity can ‘progress’ or outgrow it, is not a legitimate response to this because on atheism, there is no reason to expect humanity to progress or grow. We are a historical accident that should fully expect to be destroyed by the next asteriod, pandemic, or fascist atheist with a nuke. In short, if atheism is correct, there is no benefit, either on an individual or societal level, to knowing this or to spreading such ‘knowledge.’ 2. Related to this, why is the atheist debater even alive to participate. If there is no heaven, no hell, no afterlife at all, only an incredibly window of blind pitiless indifference, then the agony of struggling to exist, seeing loved ones die, and then dying yourself can never be outweighed by any benefit to existing. As rude as it way sound (and I AM NOT advocating suicide) the atheist should have a coherent explanation for why they chose to continue existing. Failure to adequately address these threshold questions should result in summary rejection of the neckbeard’s position.

In the end, we all know you can’t answer these questions because yours is a petty, trivial, localized, earth bound philosophy, unworthy of the universe.

Finally, is there a basement dwelling troll left in the multiverse who doesn’t drag themselves out of the primordial ooze and logged onto this site in order to announce our collective atheism towards Thor, that gardens can be beautiful without fairies (a powerful rebuttal to fairy apologetics, by the way, but it leaves a lot unanswered about the Gardener), and that we cling to Bronze Age skymen due to our fear of the dark? Let me translate that to neckbeard: you are unoriginal, you are wrong, and you are an ass.

Nemo #fundie patheos.com

If Islam in its purest form is indeed the enemy, then what do you propose doing? If Islam does indeed pose an existential threat to Western civilization, don't talk about it. Do something. If they want a war, give them a war. If they burn a church, burn a mosque. If they kill a pastor in Oman, shoot a mullah in San Diego. It's that simple. Respond to the aggressors with greater force, and only then can you hope to survive. Sun Tzu understood it, Jesus of Nazareth understood it...

William Lane Craig #fundie patheos.com

[quoted from his book "On Guard"]

A person who has been raised in a culture that is sympathetic to the Christian faith will be open to the gospel in a way that a person brought up in a secular culture will not. For a person who is thoroughly secularized, you may as well tell him to believe in fairies or leprechauns as in Jesus Christ! That’s how absurd the message of Christ will seem to him.

To see the influence of a culture on your own thinking, imagine what you would think if a Hindu devotee of the Hare Krishna movement, with his shaved head and saffron robe, approached you at the airport or shopping mall, offering you a flower and inviting you to become a follower of Krishna. Such an invitation would likely strike you as bizarre, freakish, maybe even a bit funny. But think how differently someone in Delhi, India, would react if he were approached by such a person! Having been raised in a Hindu culture, he might take such an invitation very seriously.

Rebecca Hamilton #fundie patheos.com

Rebecca Hamilton, Catholic Blogger and 17-year member of the Oklahoma House of Representatives, comments on the case of Barronelle Stutzman, a florist in WA that is being sued for refusing to provide flowers for a gay wedding.

Selling flowers to gay customers or employing gay people are both well within Christian behavior. In fact, treating gay people like people is pretty much a requirement of following Jesus. Providing flowers for a gay wedding, on the other hand, would have put Ms Stutzman in the position of actively participating in something that just about all traditional Christians regard as sinful. It is a violation of what Jesus intended for marriage to be, and, many people believe, will do great harm to the already damaged institution of marriage.

To use an analogy, if someone who was getting ready to rob bank came into your store and wanted to buy a carton of milk for their lunch, selling them the milk would not make you part of their bank robbing. However, if they asked you to sell them a bag for the money, and they told you it would be used in a bank robbery, you would be part of the crime.

I am not equating bank robbery with gay marriage. They are entirely different. I just used that as an illustration.

The point here is that to compel someone to participate in an action that they regard as sinful is a violation of their human dignity and their right as human beings and American citizens to decide these things for themselves. Even if bank robbery was legal, if a store owner still believes that theft is a sin, they should have the right to refuse to sell the erstwhile robber the bag for the loot.

Stephen Baskerville #fundie patheos.com

[From Patrick Henry College's Faith and Reason Lecture - attendance compulsory - on the war against Christianity]

Since the inception of their Revolution—and well beneath the media radar screen—militants have been creating a panoply of new crimes and expanded redefinitions of existing crimes—all involving sexual relations. While it is very likely that the Sexual Revolution has also increased incidences of real sex crimes, the new gender crimes are very different: They play on the fear of sex crimes, but they redefine these politically to include not simply acts but heterodox political beliefs. The reality of the witch hunts thus bears no necessary relation to what is suggested by the inflammatory language and jargon:
?“rape” that includes consensual relations and in most instances is no more than that;
?domestic “violence” that involves no violence or any physical contact or threat of it;
?sexual “harassment” that can mean anything from simple flirtation to unauthorized opinions about morality or politics;
?“child abuse” that is routine parental discipline, or homeschooling, or concocted altogether to win advantage in divorce court;
?“bullying” that involves criticism of the homosexual agenda or other differences of belief and opinion;
?“stalking” that is forcibly divorced fathers trying to see their own children;

And much more.

Mo86 #fundie patheos.com

"The Bible embraces violence and hatred every bit as much as the Koran"

And that's as far as I read of your comment, and the last I will be engaging in conversation with you.

This is a flat out lie. There are no open-ended commands in the OT or the NT for Jews or Christians to commit violence against unbelievers or against anyone. You cannot produce any because they do not exist.

Therefore, there are no Jews or Christians committing such acts, on a regular basis, all over the world, in obedience to any such commands.

Period.

Abib14 #fundie patheos.com

Why is this study even necessary? Why can't science simply believe the word of God? Why can't science simply read Matthew 11:25-26, and believe Jesus? This study should not come as a revelation, rather this study merely confirms that it is the will of the Father that spiritual things are hidden from the wise/intelligent,

At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.

Robert A. J. Gagnon #fundie #homophobia patheos.com

To see just how silly Scot's arguments are, consider the following. According to Scot, appeals to Scripture and nature arguments to reject homosexual practice must be rejected because slaveowners in the antebellum American South also made appeals to Scripture and nature arguments. Never mind that the latter were bad appeals based on misunderstandings of Scripture and the former are good appeals that are based on correct understandings of Scripture understood in its historical and literary context. Scot goes with the view that if a certain type of argument can ever be used badly then all such types of argument must be bad. So let's apply Scot's principles and see what we come up with.

Scot argues that homosexualist arguments are like abolitionist arguments: they both are good because they make general appeals "inspired by the larger arc of scripture," "the message of grace" and "justice and universal brotherhood." But hold the fort: modern polyamorists, proponents of "big love," argue on the basis of the same types of principles. So the Unitarian Universalist Polyamory Awareness group which even the president of the main UU seminary (Starr King) has endorsed. By Scot's reasoning since polyamorists use the same types of argument, but do it badly, then all such types of arguments, irrespective of how equal and accurate their general appeals to scripture and justice/love are, must be rejected. That's how bad Scot's reasoning his.

Robert A. J. Gagnon #fundie #homophobia patheos.com

Scot, as I’ve noted in my published work, an appeal to an alleged slavery analogy is simply a bad case of analogical reasoning. Such an appeal even contradicts the use of an exploitation and orientation argument that you adopt. If the Bible does not intend to indict committed homosexual unions entered into by homosexually oriented persons (as you erroneously believe), why make an argument from analogy that is grounded on the need to depart from Scripture’s stance?

As it is, the alleged slavery analogy actually has little in the way of substantive correspondence with the Bible’s view of homosexual practice. The Bible shows no vested interest in preserving slavery. In a society without a social welfare net slavery is sometimes the only alternative to starvation; otherwise it serves as a penal institution in place of standing prisons or as a means of processing prisoners of war. At a number of points Scripture exhibits a critical edge toward that institution: mandatory release dates, right of kinship redemption at any time, injunctions not to treat Israelites as slaves, protection of runaway slaves, the exodus from Egyptian as a symbol of Israel’s release from slavery, Paul’s letter to Philemon promoting the release of Onesimus, and so on. Relative to the surrounding cultures of the ancient Near East and of Greece and Rome, the biblical witness on slavery moves in the direction of curtailing that institution. Finally, there is no creation mandate for slavery. Slavery is not imaged as part of the pre-Fall structures of the world.

Scot, compare this certainly non-enthusiastic and often critical attitude toward the institution of slavery in Scripture with the Bible’s strong witness in favor of a male-female prerequisite: There is a strong creation mandate for such a prerequisite; the pages of Scripture show strong revulsion for homosexual practice and absolutely no accommodation; and ancient Israel, early Judaism, and early Christianity had the most rigorous opposition to homosexual practice of any known culture in the ancient Near East and Greco-Roman Mediterranean basin. Jesus in Mark 10 (parallel in Matt 19) treated a male-female prerequisite for marriage (and thus all sexual relations) as foundational for sexual ethics, including the limitation of sexual unions to two persons.

The only connection that homosexualist interpreters can make between the Bible’s critical tolerance of slavery and its deliberate abhorrence of all homosexual practice is that we have changed on the institution of slavery; therefore, they argue, we should change our position on homosexual practice. Yet that argument can be used arbitrarily for any and every belief and practice promoted in Scripture, for it takes no account of whether substantive points of correspondence exist apart from the desire of the interpreter to deviate from Scripture.

The better analogy is between slavery and support for homosexual practice, for those who argue for the latter on the basis of a “born that way” philosophy are promoting slavery to the desires of the flesh. And still better analogies are the Bible’s stance on incest and the New Testament opposition to polygamy since the reasons why these behaviors are proscribed are related to, or derived from, a male-female prerequisite for sexual relations. As you must know, when one uses remote analogues (here, slavery) and ignores more proximate analogues (incest and polyamory) one shows poor analogical reasoning.

Galen Dalrymple #fundie patheos.com

Americans see rational, scientific reasons for everything. Sadly, this extends into our spiritual lives as well. When I first got here and started to learn about the culture, I was somewhat shocked to find so much talk about witchcraft, spells and curses, demons and spiritual warfare. My American-educated mind immediately thought, “What kind of Christians are these who believe in such things?” But, as time passed, I began to see that they take Ephesians 6:12 deadly serious: For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

As I began to think more deeply about this, I confess that what we explain away in America as some physical, mental, chemical or other failure may in fact be the result of spiritual warfare indirectly or directly. For example, we think of certain birth defects as being the result of genetic mutations or failures. But the deeper question may be: what causes the genetic malfunction? Is it truly random, or is it an unseen spiritual warfare played out at an atomic level in the body? And what of the “unexplained” incidents of birth defects – what is the cause of those? Are they just due simply to the fall? Why should a particular gene sequence go haywire and others not?

As a result, I have been forced to ask myself who is deluded and who is seeing things clearly? Is it possible that we have failed in America to believe enough in unseen powers that struggle against our souls and have adopted a secularized, scientific and sanitized faith when it comes to spiritual warfare? After all, Jesus clearly believed in demons and they certainly believed in him! Jesus was no fool. If anyone has insight into the spiritual realities, it was He. While I think a balanced approach and view is called for in this matter, perhaps it is much to our detriment as Americans that we have made mincemeat of the concept of spiritual warfare and its effect on the events of our daily lives.

JFSEB #fundie patheos.com

If you are Jewish, Israel is a Jewish state. If you are Muslim, there are many Islamic states. If you are godless, California and New York are godless states.

As for the reason God should be called upon during government functions, any government leader, who is a member of the three Abrahamic religions, would want God's blessing on their leadership efforts. This is a Constitutional right that government is presently suppressing.

Richard Gandhi #fundie patheos.com

The fact that the hairs on the back of your neck stand up to even try to spell God with a capital G, leads me to believe that somewhere inside you, you doubt your convictions. Hairs standing up on your neck, is a fear reaction. You would not fear something which your soul knew for certain did not exist.

Pastor Steven Anderson #fundie patheos.com

If you want to go home and have your wife boss you around and lord over you, I’ll tolerate you doing that. But that’s not the way it’s going to be in my house, because I’m actually a real man who actually is in charge in my home, and I’m not an effeminate man who lets my wife boss me around and tell me what to do, like most men are becoming today, unfortunately.

[...]

Well, the Bible actually teaches that gays should be executed— now, I’m not saying that I would ever kill anyone, because I never would, but I believe that the government should use the death penalty on murderers, rapists, homosexuals, and— that’s what the Bible teaches very clearly.

[...]

Nothing in the Bible has been proven not to be true. And I’ve been alive for 31 years and everything I’ve ever seen just proves that the Bible is true.

dj #fundie patheos.com

Just for the record, the oldest (known) living thing on earth is the bristle cone pine found in the white mts. of N. central Ca. 4700 years according to growth rings. It has been shown that coal, oil, and diamonds can be formed in a few years. In lab tests a few weeks. Soft tissue has been found in T rex bone marrow, population geneticists have demonstrated that Neanderthals are genetically human, the human race would have gone extinct in a few thousand years due to genetic entropy.You old earthers should actually do some serious research on both sides of the fence.

Cdbren #fundie patheos.com

Animals beget their own kind. You can't scientifically get from a fish to a Giraffe. That's a laughable fairy tale. There is no testing, observing or repeating of this happening.

Walk out of your box and really explore science.....that's my best advice.

theot58 #fundie patheos.com

James, I really choked on your statement: "First, biological evolution has nothing whatsoever to do with the origin of the observable world."
Mate what are you smoking? Read any biology text book on evolution or Darwins book and they all assert that from a common ancestor ALL the living forms emerged.

Consider an extract from Berkely website: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/...

The central idea of biological evolution
is that ALL life on Earth shares a common ancestor,
just as you and your cousins share a common grandmother.

Through the process of descent with modification,
the common ancestor of life on Earth gave rise to the fantastic diversity that we see documented in the fossil record and around us today.

Evolution means that we're all distant cousins:
humans and oak trees, hummingbirds and whales.

RBrewer YEC #fundie patheos.com

Lol... you think dinosaurs were erased by a meteorite still... sill boy, that's a child's tale. Come up with a real solution next time you flap open that oil pit you call mouth.

The dinosaurs became extinct due to the fact that atmospheric pressure (less oxygen) did not allow for the continuation of such large beasts. Their breath would have been labored and they would have been easily hunted for their meat. Thus going extinct.

Tom Harmon #fundie patheos.com

"Dr. McGrath", if you really had the truth, and you knew it for sure...you would not mock people like Ken Ham, he would'nt be a threat to your knowledge. The fact is, your analogy is not "fool proof", as I'm guessing you were'nt there when the earth, or the moon, or Mars was formed???. Go ahead and mock the Bible, and the words of Christ himself, "for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day" Ex.20:11, that's seven literal days, that's what the "authority of God's word says. "Have ye not read, that he which made them in the beginning, made them male and female". "That's the authority "you're really challenging, not just a "finite" man like Ken Ham, or myself.

Cdbren #fundie patheos.com

The Jesus you claim to believe in for your salvation accepted and supported the six days of creation as historical and all of Moses writings that they had in his time as from God and true history. (As well as supported as history by other Bible authors.)

By saying Genesis is not historical or literal or history is saying Jesus' words (about himself and salvation, ie. Christianity) are not true either. So you may want to change your claim that you are a "Christian" to something else.

theot58 #fundie patheos.com

Your reasoning is silly. You want to me to show evidence that you cannot get order from chaos without an intelligent designer - are you nuts. That it self evident

The onus of proof is on evolutionists who assert that from chaos, order can emerge by the simple application of energy. This is counter to common sense and observation. This is what needs to proven.
Why don't you give it a go?

Consider just a small number of fundamental scientific problems with Darwinian/Macro evolution

1) Where did the information come from to build the DNA molecule?
- it contains over 4 Gigabits of programing data; we have never observed natural forces creating programming data
- a building is proof of a builder, a program is proof of a programmer, a design is proof of a designer

2) How did genders "evolve" from asexual organisms?
- Consider some of the challenges, have a look at this video http://youtu.be/Ab1VWQEnnwM

3) How do you explain symbiotic relationships while holding to gradual "evolution"?
- eg The bees need the flowers, the flowers need the bees - they both MUST exist togeter, how could this occur slowly or gradually
- What came first the Chicken or the egg?

4) Where are all the myriad of transition fossils that Darwin predicted?
- They were missing then and they are missing now.
- How can the Cambrian explosion of millions of fully formed organism appearing abrupty be explained by Evolution?

5) Which "evolved" first, the vagina or the penis?
- how did one "evolve" from the other?

Triston Dyer #fundie patheos.com

I think young people want to get beyond the nonsense of scientists: There was nothing and then nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itself for no reason whatsoever into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs. Go home Science, you’re drunk. It is no wonder the Bible calls atheists fools.

Rob #fundie patheos.com

I noticed a false dichotomy in this article and wanted to challenge it. I don't think you can just dismiss this debate on when so many choose to embrace atheism on the grounds of origins. Creationism is not just the playground for "recalcitrant" fundamentals; but truly something being studied at the physical and cosmological level of Einstein, Hawking, and Sandage. Your article just passes it by as if 7 day creation, 6000 year old earth, etc. etc is all of Creationism. I know you are trying to move on from this debate; but you mislead in your caricature of Creationism. Did God cause beings to appear or did he just deistically set in motion our evolution from soup and microorganisms is a better question to argue over, not at the level you are suggesting where one side are stubborn baffoons and the other side are cool headed intellectuals...much more nuanced and sophisticated than that. Read anything about Michael Behe or Stephen Meyer to get some info on design and origin of life if interested.

Theodore Seeber #fundie patheos.com

I have a theory that equates contraception with a form of rape.

It goes something like this: Rape has nothing to do with consent, and everything to do with the intent of the rapist. If the only intent in a sex act is to use another person as an object for sexual gratification, then that is rape. The only concrete, material way to judge this is the intent to create a new life. Rapists aren’t thinking about a new life, and if they’re thinking about the future at all, they want their sex to be non-procreative. Contraception is about preventing new life from occurring- and thus making the woman available to be a sex object.

Thomas L. McDonald #fundie patheos.com

Evangelical atheists are funny little people, ain’t they? They claim to be the sole heirs to true “reason,” while promoting a mechanistic model of the the universe that is more faith-based than that of theists. I believe the origin of the universe in the big bang (a theory originated by Fr. Georges Lemaître) has a theistic cause, and I have the proof of my own senses and reason, as well as the perfectly sound logical point that all causes must trace themselves back to a First Cause. They also believe that the universe has an origin point, and that their faith-based view of science will find the solely natural cause for that origin annnnny day now. Just give it time. Top Men are working on it right now. Top! Men!

Of course, once that cause is found, it still doesn’t rule out a theistic answer to the origin and nature of the universe any more than understanding why a rose is red and smells nice renders Shakespeare meaningless.

Here’s the glorious truth for them: time, space, and matter have an origin point outside of time, space, and matter, and this everyone understands to be God. It’s really not that hard, and if the next question is, “Well, then where does God come from?” the answer is right there in that complex, brilliant, poetic, vexing, and infinitely wise thing we call scripture, formulated long before the idea of contingent being: “God is.”

What, you wanted something more than that? Maybe a calculation or a formula or a paper in Nature? An answer that reduces the infinite wonder of a totally non-contingent being responsible for all existence into something you can store in that bag of gray mush in your noggin? Tough crap. That’s all you’re getting: YHWH. It’s all you need. Embrace that one mystery, and all else makes sense.

H1p0cr8s #fundie patheos.com

If I'm understanding you correctly, you object to Craig believing that it's not ok for him to kill another, but it's ok for his god to. Why wouldn't a god who made something do as he pleases? Why wouldn't he have the right to set the rules for his creation, but exempt himself? I'm not seeing a conflict here, if you consider the position of the man in relation to his god. Now if a man were to set the rules for others to follow, but he himself didn't... oh, wait, we already have that. Never mind...

Pastor Steven Anderson #fundie patheos.com

Today we have women’s rights! We’ve come a long way, baby! And today, you know, [in a mocking voice] ‘Oh those horrible, horrible days when women had no rights’— Let’s bring them back! Let’s get back to those days! [Fake scream] What are you so worried about? What do you think they mean when they say ‘women’s rights’? You know what they mean? The right to divorce your husband is what they mean. You know what they mean? The right to rebel and disobey your husband. The right to divorce him. The right to go out and get a job and make your own money. The right to tell him what to do. The right to go vote for our leaders as if women should have any say in how our country is run, when the Bible says that ‘I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence’? I AM QUOTING THE BIBLE RIGHT NOW! But it’s old-fashioned.

Pastor Steven Anderson #fundie #ableist patheos.com

The Bible says women are supposed to be sober. “That means get off the drugs. You say, ‘Well, nobody in our church is smoking pot.’ Well, what about all the other drugs? What about all the other mind-altering drugs that you’re on for your [big quote fingers] ‘depression’? For your ‘anxiety’?— No Christian ought to be on psychiatric meds, period.

Eric the Red #fundie patheos.com

[Women entered the workforce the same time men did. It started back in the earliest days of humanity.]

That's cute, but we're talking about real jobs here.

Why do feminists (and their useful idiot manginas) hate math? Do you really think that you can flood the workforce with women and have a corresponding number of job openings magically appear? Reduce demand further by having less children and the problem exacerbates itself. "But the laws of supply and demand are unfaaaaaaaaaaair!" you whine. "The answer is MOAR GUBMIT! Look, I've got an MLK quote and everything!"

Howard Mazzaferro #fundie patheos.com

I would just like to thank all the pseudo-scientists for providing me with entertainment today. Your lack of reason and knowledge provided me with endless entertainment. It was no surprise that science and hate go hand in hand, good job everybody! Kind of reminds me of the inquisitions, how nice. I have to go now because you are beginning to bore me. And if you stop hating so much, the God of the Bible might open your eyes to the truth, but don't count on it in your current state. So you might as well keep believing that you are the result of monkeys, your actions sure show that. :-)

ounbbl #fundie #homophobia patheos.com

I don’t under this. What does your being gay or not gay have anything to do with this poem? You seem to bring down ‘love’ to our mere human love (which is a shadow of divine love) or, worse, to sexual love (which is not ‘love’ of the Bible).
‘Our civilization is threatened by gays’ – in a sense it’s true. Suppose everyone is gay – where would be our next generation? It’s like China syndrome. They want to have only a son (with gender-cide of unborn baby girls by systematic abortion with prenatal ultrasound exam diagnosis). Then, where would be families and next generation? Is it different than a scenario of an end of human civilization, and humanity itself?
Homosexuality is as much as sin as humanity itself, when it is divorced from the Creator God. It is homosexualism that is sin. Homosexuality is what they may be; homosexualism is what they choose to be bound in slavery – homosexual behavior, conduct, life style, culture with gay agenda, politics, militant gay movement and ideology. They bring their own condemnation on themselves and trying to blame others (who cannot be angelic to them) and trying to read the Bible to justify their life of homo hedonicus as well practiced in the culture of Greek and Romans. Some even wrote a book ‘Gay Spirituality’. What does have sodomy and physical pleasure have anything to do with spirituality? Let each concentrate on one’s own spiritual journey? Yeah, it sounds much like a spiritism. BTW, spirituality is not something you do in spiritual style/area; it is the spiritual reality, that is, God Himself.

Ginny Bain Allen #fundie patheos.com

The anti-Christ Bob Marley got it wrong, Lori. That was my point. I reiterate, for your benefit. Every little thing AIN'T gonna be all right as you anti-Christs live and let live your irresponsible, narcissistic, little lives. New age belief declares: All is God, All is One, All is Well. How preposterous! Just because you might be in a place, let's say, like Berkeley does not make you a wise person. Au contraire! I've recently dubbed the so-called Ivy League schools a new name - the POISON Ivy League schools!

Ginny Bain Allen #racist patheos.com

First off, remember Obama is only partially black, so those who voted for him were, in truth, voting for a black/white man. How anyone can vote for someone who has taken us so far off the rails of financial wisdom and security is beyond me!

Secondly, the poll where my mother has worked during numerous elections was host to quite a few blacks who had never before voted in their entire lives......until Obama was a candidate. Upon their arrival at the poll, they asked my mother what party the black man was representing because they wanted to vote for him. Sadly, many of them could not even sign their own name.

Thirdly, many so-called Christian blacks voted for Obama. How pathetic that their devotion to skin color outweighed their devotion to their Lord, Master and Saviour. Oh, wait a minute, Jamie Foxx did refer to Obama as our Lord and Saviour, silly me.

But, of course, no blacks are racist. Only white Christians, particularly males, the least of the least in the eyes of the anti-Christs among us. Of course, when whites aren't willing to vote for a black man, it necessarily indicates racism. There could be no other possible reasons for not voting for him.

Get real, phonies!

Frank #fundie patheos.com

[On a thread about how fundies feel about Halloween]

As if happiness is he point of life. That’s what you get when you reject God. A false and unsatisfying purpose in life.

Wilson #fundie patheos.com

[on a blog post of a pro-lifer who turned pro-choice]
Being evil is easier than being principled, so your story of courage is really the opposite. I’ll agree that birth control should be supported by people who are pro-life, but unfortunately the only people who subscribe to any morality in this country are strict Christians, some of whom mistakenly want to legislate morality. But why isn’t there a pro-choice faction that supports BC, but wants to limit abortion? Because they have taken their pro-choicisim to such a level that they are in fact anti-life. Now being pro-BC doesn’t mean you have to be pro-free-BC, that is stepping things up to pro-socialism. You think you were being “duped” before, but you still are being duped, just to an atheistic anti-human doctrine.

Avery Falk-Smith #fundie patheos.com

First of all.... IF people would read their bibles.... Revelations to be exact, Jesus Christ himself does NOT know himself the hour and date of his return, nor the angels. Revelations also explains that certain events have to take place BEFORE his return, meaning we all need to read to see these events to know where we are at in Revelations. I don't believe in "Psychics, Tarot Cards, Palm readers" what I do believe is what the bible has already stated and what God himself shares with me. I do believe however that America IS asleep and needs to wake up. According to the bible, 2 will be chosen for election but there will also be a public figure that will rise up, then the anti christ. Are we in that time right now? Hard to say, although things seem to point that way. In the end days, God does talk about division among us. Already we are hearing how the Democrats are talking about if your Christian you need to bail now and leave. God is moving us around folks, he is getting us ready, moving us into position. Wars and rumors of wars are also stated in this book. Israel will NOT see peace until his return. If we sit here and put so much focus on the media and all this madness flying around we actually rob ourselves of what God has given us. We have taken our eyes off of him and not stood on our faith and our trust in him. Yes, these things are heartbreaking, yes when it does come down to who wins we will be faced with enduring what they have to offer us, but I say take heart, keep your spiritual eyes and ears open and stay focused on what God will have you focused on. "Satan will come like a thief in the night, a wolf in sheep's clothing...a coat of many colors" We all need to be watching and praying and continuing life as God intended. We are living in scary times folks, no question. Where is our faith? Where is our trust? God says, FEAR NOT! For I AM with you always! With much love from God and I to all of you! God Bless us all! :)

Ginny Bain Allen #fundie patheos.com

Check out Jill Stanek's page to learn the truth about abortion, in the windy city in particular, Obamao's hometown.

In essence what you are saying is that it's alright for unborn babies to die during abortions, but it's not okay for their mothers to die attempting to abort them. How is the life of a mother any more valuable than the life of her unborn child? The womb is created to be the safest, nurturing haven for the developing child. When pregnant mothers go against their innate nature to protect the life of their precious baby, and instead have them ripped from their safe nest, it is the most pitiful act of all.Hmmm, wonder why we have such a rape culture? Could it have anything at all to do with the sleazy billion dollar pornography industry, and how we have allowed our entire society to be all about sex, sex and more sex??? Free love abounds due to wise, caring progressives pushing, pushing, pushing for it. To progressives it's all about free love, and nothing about Jesus. That's why we're living in such rot!

theot58 #fundie patheos.com

This article is really silly, especially the statement "Young-earth creationism is a sin"
The real sin is that many Christians have been intimidated by abmit but empty claims by evolutionists and have accepted Evolution as a scientific fact when in reality the scientific evidence supporting it is pathetic.
“Evolution” is a vague word. The main defintions in the text books are:

1) "change over time", this is silly as it is stating the flaming obvious.

2) Micro evolution is minor changes within a species, this is real and observable and uncontested.

3) Darwinian/Macro evolution (where the conflict is) which asserts that:

a) All living things had a common ancestor. This implies that your great—.. great grandfather was a self replicating molecule.

b) The observable world has come into existence by totally natural, unguided processes and specifically WITHOUT the involvement of an intelligent designer.

The evolution battle is often MISrepresented as science against religion - this is baloney!
The real battle is between good science and Darwinism. When Darwinian/Macro evolution is scrutinised using the scientific method, it crumbles.

The scientific method demands: observation, measurement, repeatability. Darwinian/Macro evolution has none of these, all it has is circumstantial evidence which is open to interpretation. Ask yourself: What evidence is there that our great .... great grandfather was a self replicating molecule?

Dr John Sanford (Geneticist and inventor of the GeneGun) said .

“The bottom line is that the primary axiom [of Darwinian/Macro evolution] is categorically false, you can't create information with misspellings, not even if you use natural selection.”

Windeagle63 #fundie patheos.com

America was brought into being by people who put their lives, property and money (everything they had) to promote liberty. Liberty is the hope of all people who aspire to to being free from the rule, often called governance, of the blue bloods who seek to enslave all common people. Liberty entails personal responsibility. which sitting on your ass and believing someone else owes you a living is about as obsene as the POPE cursing at mass. The blue bloods promote this false belief to enable their success. The liberal population of America is not deserving of the blood sacrifice that has been made for them by real Americans. That strata of population needs to go somewhere else to live or be exterminated. Mitt Romney, is actually speaking truth here, which sit on your ass peiple who call themselves Americans don't want to hear. Treason is not a constitutional right. Get real or die.

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